From everson at evertype.com  Sun Aug 15 23:16:49 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 23:16:49 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
Message-ID: <A62689E7-62F6-4394-92E0-F8E9DA19D4D3@evertype.com>

We have c?c?mys in Alys; that's [k??k?m?s] pl c?c?mysow. Ray's Everyday Cornish has cucumbra. The UCR dictionary gives cucumys (= KS c?c?mys) and c?cumber [?ku?k?mb?r] pl c?cumbers (= KS c?c?mber). 

The KK dictionaries give no word for this.

The SWF glossary gives cucomber pl cucomberyow which I read as [k??k?mb?r]~[k??k?mb?r] for which I think the rounded front vowel in the first syllable unlikely.

Wyclif's form was cucumer, app. directly from Latin cucumis (acc. cucumerem). Other English forms are found in cocomber, cucumber, etc.. There are obsolete French forms cocombre and coucombre.

Should we use c?c?mbra pl c?c?mbrys or c?combra pl c?combrys? 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From everson at evertype.com  Mon Aug 16 00:22:33 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:22:33 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
In-Reply-To: <4c68764b.d908e30a.4f89.ffffb469@mx.google.com>
References: <4c68764b.d908e30a.4f89.ffffb469@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <9FFDFAAA-FEEA-4013-9A09-740923483405@evertype.com>

On 16 Aug 2010, at 00:20, J Kereve-Clarke Snr wrote:

> Kk spelling is kukomber, kukomberyow from first 1000 words in cornish.
> Jonathan

That may be, but it's not in the Gerlyver Meur 2009.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From kevardhu at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 00:26:41 2010
From: kevardhu at gmail.com (J Kereve-Clarke Snr)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:26:41 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
Message-ID: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com>

Nor in the gerlyver kres..don't know about the gerlyverik

- Sent from my HTC on 3 -

----- Reply message -----
From: "Michael Everson" <everson at evertype.com>
Date: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 00:22
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
To: "Spellyans" <spellyans at kernowek.net>

On 16 Aug 2010, at 00:20, J Kereve-Clarke Snr wrote:

> Kk spelling is kukomber, kukomberyow from first 1000 words in cornish.
> Jonathan

That may be, but it's not in the Gerlyver Meur 2009.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net


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From ray at spyrys.org  Mon Aug 16 08:30:04 2010
From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:30:04 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
In-Reply-To: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com>
References: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <7A1D3E8C-1A0D-40AC-992F-A7D7A3262A90@spyrys.org>

I think 'cucumbra' comes from an old, pre-Kemmyn issue of An Gannas.

On 16 Est 2010, at 00:26, J Kereve-Clarke Snr wrote:

> Nor in the gerlyver kres..don't know about the gerlyverik
>
> - Sent from my HTC on 3 -
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "Michael Everson" <everson at evertype.com>
> Date: Mon, Aug 16, 2010 00:22
> Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
> To: "Spellyans" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
>
> On 16 Aug 2010, at 00:20, J Kereve-Clarke Snr wrote:
>
> > Kk spelling is kukomber, kukomberyow from first 1000 words in  
> cornish.
> > Jonathan
>
> That may be, but it's not in the Gerlyver Meur 2009.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

Ray Chubb

Portreth
Kernow




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From everson at evertype.com  Mon Aug 16 09:56:11 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:56:11 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
In-Reply-To: <7A1D3E8C-1A0D-40AC-992F-A7D7A3262A90@spyrys.org>
References: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com>
	<7A1D3E8C-1A0D-40AC-992F-A7D7A3262A90@spyrys.org>
Message-ID: <A2D36FC7-3031-4E4A-A051-3C0A33B24D49@evertype.com>

I spoke with Ray this morning, and he says ['ku?k?mb??] with a stress on the first syllable, a long vowel, and a u-coloured schwa in the penultimate. Either <c?c?mbra> or <c?combra> could represent this; the latter has the "advantage" of fewer diacritics and is similar to the older French <coucombre>.

I do think that we should stick to the accidence c?combra pl c?combrys in favour of a KK/SWF-based c?comber pl c?comberyow.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From craig at agantavas.org  Mon Aug 16 10:09:11 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:09:11 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
In-Reply-To: <A2D36FC7-3031-4E4A-A051-3C0A33B24D49@evertype.com>
References: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com>
	<7A1D3E8C-1A0D-40AC-992F-A7D7A3262A90@spyrys.org>
	<A2D36FC7-3031-4E4A-A051-3C0A33B24D49@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <21032FBE-68A6-4F5C-96FA-B17FC47873CD@agantavas.org>

Richard Gendall only gives: cowcumber, which is an Eng. dialectal form.

Craig


On 16 Est 2010, at 09:56, Michael Everson wrote:

> I spoke with Ray this morning, and he says ['ku?k?mb??] with a  
> stress on the first syllable, a long vowel, and a u-coloured schwa  
> in the penultimate. Either <c?c?mbra> or <c?combra> could  
> represent this; the latter has the "advantage" of fewer diacritics  
> and is similar to the older French <coucombre>.
>
> I do think that we should stick to the accidence c?combra pl  
> c?combrys in favour of a KK/SWF-based c?comber pl c?comberyow.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From rcr_young at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug 16 11:03:13 2010
From: rcr_young at yahoo.co.uk (Ceri Young)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:03:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
In-Reply-To: <A2D36FC7-3031-4E4A-A051-3C0A33B24D49@evertype.com>
References: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com>
	<7A1D3E8C-1A0D-40AC-992F-A7D7A3262A90@spyrys.org>
	<A2D36FC7-3031-4E4A-A051-3C0A33B24D49@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <314649.54057.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

While you're at it, could you please settle the word 'cucumber' for the?Welsh 
language?too please! ;o)

...With added brownie points if you could?establish a formal?Welsh?translation 
for summer squash (including a specific term for?marrow & courgette (i.e. 
a?premature marrow))?&?winter squash?(including a specific term for?'gourde')! 
;o)

Welsh translations for all these terms are in a?terrible mess!

Oll an gwella
Ceri



________________________________
From: Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Mon, 16 August, 2010 9:56:11
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cucumber

I spoke with Ray this morning, and he says ['ku?k?mb??] with a stress on the 
first syllable, a long vowel, and a u-coloured schwa in the penultimate. Either 
<c?c?mbra> or <c?combra> could represent this; the latter has the "advantage" of 
fewer diacritics and is similar to the older French <coucombre>.

I do think that we should stick to the accidence c?combra pl c?combrys in favour 
of a KK/SWF-based c?comber pl c?comberyow.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net



      
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From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug 16 13:33:04 2010
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:33:04 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
In-Reply-To: <314649.54057.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com>
	<7A1D3E8C-1A0D-40AC-992F-A7D7A3262A90@spyrys.org>
	<A2D36FC7-3031-4E4A-A051-3C0A33B24D49@evertype.com>
	<314649.54057.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7346F74B-A087-46D7-B243-750666338DBB@yahoo.co.uk>

On 16 Est 2010, at 11:03, Ceri Young wrote:
> While you're at it, could you please settle the word 'cucumber' for  
> the Welsh language too please! ;o)
> ...With added brownie points if you could establish a formal Welsh  
> translation for summer squash (including a specific term for marrow  
> & courgette (i.e. a premature marrow)) & winter squash (including a  
> specific term for 'gourde')! ;o)

Here's a few gleaning from some Welsh and Cornish dictionaries which  
be helpful:

The 'Geiriadur Mawr' (1981) offers us nothing for 'squash', but has:
	cucumber. cucumer, ciwcymber
	gourd. cicaion
	vegetable marrow, pumpkin. pwmpen

Spurrell-Anwyl (1932) has:
	cucumber. y chwerwddwfr, chwerwdhyfrlys, cucumer
	gourd. cicaion, pompiwn
	pumpkin. pwmpa, pompiwn
	vegetable marrow. pwmpen, pompiwn

Neither of them offer anything for 'gherkin' other than a description  
(math o gucumer i'w biclo)

However, the concise Geiriadur Prifysgol (free download as searchable  
PDFs from http://www.aber.ac.uk/~gpcwww/gpc_pdfs.htm) also offers the  
following:
	gourd: goldyn, gordyn, gowrd
	gourd, pumpkin. gwrd
	vegertable marrows. llysfer (plural only, seemingly)
	pumpkin. pomcin, pymcin, pwmcin
	squash (but not the vegetable meaning). sgwash, sgwosh
The GPC also has:
	cicaion. Biblical plant or tree, probably Palma Christi or gourd (1588)
	
	

As for Cornish, Nance gives us:
	pompyon. vegetable marrow, pumpkin, gourd (marked as an adapted word.  
W., M.E.)

?while Williams (2006) has:
	cucumber. cucumys. cucumber
	gherkin. cucumysyk
	gourd, squash, vegetable marrow, pumpkin. pompyon

I'd suggest Cornish *pompyonyk for 'courgette', and *gord, *gurd (with  
long -u-) or even *gourd for E. 'gourd'.

Is there any reason Welsh should not do as Cornish has and have newly  
coined diminutive of some of the existing words to denote the smaller  
members   of the cucumber family: the gherkin and courgette?

Just so us Brythons don't start feeling linguistically inferior, it  
appears a similar confusion exists in the English nomenclature of some  
of these brutes as well. Note that, as usual, the article allows you  
to see what some other European languages have done with their naming  
as well:
	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squash_(plant)

Eddie Foirbeis Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Mon Aug 16 14:02:34 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:02:34 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
In-Reply-To: <7346F74B-A087-46D7-B243-750666338DBB@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com>
	<7A1D3E8C-1A0D-40AC-992F-A7D7A3262A90@spyrys.org>
	<A2D36FC7-3031-4E4A-A051-3C0A33B24D49@evertype.com>
	<314649.54057.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<7346F74B-A087-46D7-B243-750666338DBB@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A4725FBF-14D9-431D-A4F6-C958D6C7CBD9@gmail.com>

cicaion is from the Hebrew text of the book of Jona. kikayon almost  
certainly means "castor oil plant" (Ricinus communis) and should not  
be used for "gourd".
See Michael Zohary, Plants of the Bible page 193.

Nicholas

On 16 Est 2010, at 13:33, Eddie Climo wrote:

> gourd. cicaion, pompiwn

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From rcr_young at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug 16 14:31:26 2010
From: rcr_young at yahoo.co.uk (Ceri Young)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:31:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
In-Reply-To: <7346F74B-A087-46D7-B243-750666338DBB@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com>
	<7A1D3E8C-1A0D-40AC-992F-A7D7A3262A90@spyrys.org>
	<A2D36FC7-3031-4E4A-A051-3C0A33B24D49@evertype.com>
	<314649.54057.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<7346F74B-A087-46D7-B243-750666338DBB@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <510040.31772.qm@web24202.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Thank you Eddie! 

Although I am sorry, I really didn't mean to trouble you (I appreciate this 
thread is for Kernowek Standard)?- my point was meant?as a joke. As you clearly 
know, these terms in Welsh?are extremely fractured, convoluted & conflated. 
Indeed?the same seems to be the case in English too with words like marrow, 
courgette & zucchini all describing the exact same species, the latter two 
describing the same?premature fruit before seed development. Of course a marrow 
then, is a sub-set of summer squash (which Welsh seems to have no specific?word 
for, but which could easily be described with 'pwmpen haf' - yet which 
unfortunately still?conflates Cucurbita pepo with Cucurbita maxima). It makes 
Welsh very difficult when needing taxonomically exact vocabulary in this area.

I think many of the pitfalls here stem from general levels of 
misunderstandings?between both taxonomically distinct species (Cucurbita maxima 
cross breeds with other cucurbitae which gives?rise to the?'Cucurbita mixta' 
species)?- & various harvesting times for various uses?- as well as terms used 
more generically?as?collective nouns.

e.g. The term 'gourd' frequently denotes any member of the whole cucurbitaceae 
family. Does Cornish have a term for 'cucurbitaceae' or 'gourde family'?

That Welsh makes no real distinction between a squash and a pumpkin (or a squash 
and a gourde)?- conflates its word 'squash' with Winter squash. Which is where 
Welsh speakers normally just resort to English, I'm afraid. ...As with the 
loanword for gherkin?in the Geiriadur yr Academi Gymraeg - gercyn(-au) m.

Also Nicholas is right of course - the term 'cicaion' (-au) m. used in the Welsh 
bible doesn't relate to any member of the gourd family at all - but to something 
else. (I had assumed that was a reference to the Old World gourd; the 
calabash/calabaza ('bottle gourd' - Lagenaria siceraria), anciently?domesticated 
and used to make water carriers with though!)

I've attached a PDF of the most common horticultural species of plant, arranged 
in order of their relatedness to other species. I imagine it might be useful to 
any lexicographer. (The section relevant to the gourd family is on page 4.)

Oll an gwella,
Ceri



________________________________
From: Eddie Climo <eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk>
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Mon, 16 August, 2010 13:33:04
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cucumber


On 16 Est 2010, at 11:03, Ceri Young wrote:
While you're at it, could you please settle the word 'cucumber' for the?Welsh 
language?too please! ;o)
>...With added brownie points if you could?establish a formal?Welsh?translation 
>for summer squash (including a specific term for?marrow & courgette (i.e. 
>a?premature marrow))?&?winter squash?(including a specific term for?'gourde')! 
>;o)

Here's a few gleaning from some Welsh and Cornish dictionaries which be helpful:
The 'Geiriadur Mawr'?(1981) offers us nothing for 'squash', but has: 
cucumber. cucumer, ciwcymber
gourd. cicaion
vegetable marrow, pumpkin. pwmpen

Spurrell-Anwyl (1932) has:
cucumber. y chwerwddwfr, chwerwdhyfrlys, cucumer
gourd. cicaion, pompiwn
pumpkin. pwmpa, pompiwn
vegetable marrow. pwmpen, pompiwn

Neither of them offer anything for 'gherkin' other than a description (math o 
gucumer i'w biclo)

However, the concise Geiriadur Prifysgol (free download as searchable PDFs 
from?http://www.aber.ac.uk/~gpcwww/gpc_pdfs.htm) also offers the following:
gourd: goldyn, gordyn, gowrd
gourd, pumpkin. gwrd
vegertable marrows. llysfer (plural only, seemingly)
pumpkin.?pomcin, pymcin, pwmcin
squash (but not the vegetable meaning). sgwash, sgwosh
The GPC also has:
cicaion. Biblical plant or tree, probably Palma Christi or gourd (1588)

As for Cornish, Nance gives us:
pompyon. vegetable marrow, pumpkin, gourd (marked as an adapted word. W., M.E.)

?while Williams (2006) has:
cucumber. cucumys. cucumber
gherkin. cucumysyk
gourd, squash, vegetable marrow, pumpkin. pompyon

I'd suggest Cornish *pompyonyk for 'courgette', and *gord,?*gurd?(with long -u-) 
or even *gourdfor E. 'gourd'.

Is there any reason Welsh should not do as Cornish has and have newly coined 
diminutive of some of the existing words to denote the smaller members ? of the 
cucumber family: the gherkin and courgette?

Just so us Brythons don't start feeling linguistically inferior, it appears a 
similar confusion exists in the English nomenclature of some of these brutes as 
well. Note that, as usual, the article allows you to see what some other 
European languages have done with their naming as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squash_(plant)

Eddie Foirbeis Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - --?- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow?byner re bo lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem



      
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From ken at ferintosh.org  Mon Aug 16 17:26:49 2010
From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:26:49 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cucumber
References: <4c6877b1.df07e30a.239b.ffffb599@mx.google.com><7A1D3E8C-1A0D-40AC-992F-A7D7A3262A90@spyrys.org><A2D36FC7-3031-4E4A-A051-3C0A33B24D49@evertype.com><314649.54057.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com><7346F74B-A087-46D7-B243-750666338DBB@yahoo.co.uk>
	<510040.31772.qm@web24202.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2FDCC95BAA0741BCBEE7E531AC4A1188@yourcfe1ef5834>

A gowetha -oll,

Arriving at gherkins reminds me of the local London Cockney name for these (especially whn pickled) of 'wallies'.   A particular large likeness of which has been erected at St Mary Axe.

bon appetit - Ken



Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ceri Young 
  To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
  Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 2:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cucumber


  Thank you Eddie! 

  Although I am sorry, I really didn't mean to trouble you (I appreciate this thread is for Kernowek Standard) - my point was meant as a joke. As you clearly know, these terms in Welsh are extremely fractured, convoluted & conflated. Indeed the same seems to be the case in English too with words like marrow, courgette & zucchini all describing the exact same species, the latter two describing the same premature fruit before seed development. Of course a marrow then, is a sub-set of summer squash (which Welsh seems to have no specific word for, but which could easily be described with 'pwmpen haf' - yet which unfortunately still conflates Cucurbita pepo with Cucurbita maxima). It makes Welsh very difficult when needing taxonomically exact vocabulary in this area.

  I think many of the pitfalls here stem from general levels of misunderstandings between both taxonomically distinct species (Cucurbita maxima cross breeds with other cucurbitae which gives rise to the 'Cucurbita mixta' species) - & various harvesting times for various uses - as well as terms used more generically as collective nouns.

  e.g. The term 'gourd' frequently denotes any member of the whole cucurbitaceae family. Does Cornish have a term for 'cucurbitaceae' or 'gourde family'?

  That Welsh makes no real distinction between a squash and a pumpkin (or a squash and a gourde) - conflates its word 'squash' with Winter squash. Which is where Welsh speakers normally just resort to English, I'm afraid. ...As with the loanword for gherkin in the Geiriadur yr Academi Gymraeg - gercyn(-au) m.

  Also Nicholas is right of course - the term 'cicaion' (-au) m. used in the Welsh bible doesn't relate to any member of the gourd family at all - but to something else. (I had assumed that was a reference to the Old World gourd; the calabash/calabaza ('bottle gourd' - Lagenaria siceraria), anciently domesticated and used to make water carriers with though!)

  I've attached a PDF of the most common horticultural species of plant, arranged in order of their relatedness to other species. I imagine it might be useful to any lexicographer. (The section relevant to the gourd family is on page 4.)

  Oll an gwella,
  Ceri



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: Eddie Climo <eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk>
  To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
  Sent: Mon, 16 August, 2010 13:33:04
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cucumber


  On 16 Est 2010, at 11:03, Ceri Young wrote:
    While you're at it, could you please settle the word 'cucumber' for the Welsh language too please! ;o)
    ...With added brownie points if you could establish a formal Welsh translation for summer squash (including a specific term for marrow & courgette (i.e. a premature marrow)) & winter squash (including a specific term for 'gourde')! ;o)


  Here's a few gleaning from some Welsh and Cornish dictionaries which be helpful:


  The 'Geiriadur Mawr' (1981) offers us nothing for 'squash', but has: 
  cucumber. cucumer, ciwcymber
  gourd. cicaion
  vegetable marrow, pumpkin. pwmpen


  Spurrell-Anwyl (1932) has:
  cucumber. y chwerwddwfr, chwerwdhyfrlys, cucumer
  gourd. cicaion, pompiwn
  pumpkin. pwmpa, pompiwn
  vegetable marrow. pwmpen, pompiwn


  Neither of them offer anything for 'gherkin' other than a description (math o gucumer i'w biclo)


  However, the concise Geiriadur Prifysgol (free download as searchable PDFs from http://www.aber.ac.uk/~gpcwww/gpc_pdfs.htm) also offers the following:
  gourd: goldyn, gordyn, gowrd
  gourd, pumpkin. gwrd
  vegertable marrows. llysfer (plural only, seemingly)
  pumpkin. pomcin, pymcin, pwmcin
  squash (but not the vegetable meaning). sgwash, sgwosh
  The GPC also has:
  cicaion. Biblical plant or tree, probably Palma Christi or gourd (1588)


  As for Cornish, Nance gives us:
  pompyon. vegetable marrow, pumpkin, gourd (marked as an adapted word. W., M.E.)


  ?while Williams (2006) has:
  cucumber. cucumys. cucumber
  gherkin. cucumysyk
  gourd, squash, vegetable marrow, pumpkin. pompyon


  I'd suggest Cornish *pompyonyk for 'courgette', and *gord, *gurd (with long -u-) or even *gourd for E. 'gourd'.


  Is there any reason Welsh should not do as Cornish has and have newly coined diminutive of some of the existing words to denote the smaller members   of the cucumber family: the gherkin and courgette?


  Just so us Brythons don't start feeling linguistically inferior, it appears a similar confusion exists in the English nomenclature of some of these brutes as well. Note that, as usual, the article allows you to see what some other European languages have done with their naming as well:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squash_(plant)

  Eddie Foirbeis Climo
  - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
  Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
  Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Spellyans mailing list
  Spellyans at kernowek.net
  http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From everson at evertype.com  Tue Aug 17 19:22:40 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:22:40 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
Message-ID: <78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>

About a month ago, the Holyer an Gof 2010 winners have been announced: http://www.gorsethkernow.org.uk/english/competitions/awards10.htm

THe prize was shared between two books:

Joint Winner ? Cornish Language Board. An Gerlyver Meur. Dr. Ken George.
Joint Winner ? Kowethas an Yeth. Kanow Flehes. (compilation).

So, the winning prize in the Cornish language section was shared jointly between yet another of Ken George's KK dictionaries (the one that says that wosa/woja should become wozha) and a re-edition of a short book of children's songs in the SWF/M. I haven't seen the latter, so I don't can't comment on it, but at http://www.learncornish.net/books-novels/kanow-flehes the book is described thus:

"This book and DVD set includes 24 children?s songs in Cornish. The book uses the Standard Written Form and features illustrations by Rachel Axtell, and the DVD contains videos of the songs being sung by children from Marlborough Primary School in Falmouth. Kanow Flehes is suitable for use by schools as well as families who are teaching their children Cornish. An English translation of the songs is included on the DVD."

Hey, neat. Twenty-four children's songs.

I can't speak for other publishers who forward books in the Cornish language category, but I can say that Evertype forwarded eight books to the competition:

** Cornish Language section
Alys in Pow an Anethow (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland)
Adro dhe?n B?s in Peswar Ugans D?dh (Around the World in 80 Days)
Kensa Lyver Redya (A First Reading Book)
Jowal Lethesow: Whedhel a?n West a Gernow (The Lyonesse Stone: A Story of the West of Cornwall) 

** Adult fiction section
Nautilus

** Non-fiction section
Lyver Pejadow rag Kenyver Jorna: Cornish Daily Prayer
A Concise Dictionary of Cornish Place-Names
Skeul an Tavas: A coursebook in Standard Cornish

In previous years, High Commendations and Commendations have been awarded for books in the Cornish Language Section.

For books published in 2009, no such awards have been made. No High Commendations. No Commendations. To anybody. 

Certainly I *never* expected to win first prize. That would have been unthinkable. I'm an Irish publisher who has opposed Kernewek Kemmyn, after all. Indeed I would have predicted that politics *would* have handed first prize to Ken George. That he had to share the prize must be a political statement. I suspect the reasoning was "Well, we can't give a prize to the KK book on its own, since we're supposed to be supporting the SWF, and there aren't really any books published in the SWF except this reprint here...." 

But I did expect *some* notice to be taken of the 125,000 words of Cornish which I published in 2009. So what was the rationale here? It was either "Well, we could give a commendation to this Irish publisher's books. They are rather nice-looking. The Cornish is even good." or it was "Oh, no, we'd better not commend this Irish publisher's books. He's not using either KK or the SWF. We mustn't have that."

What do you think?

It almost looks as though Gorseth Kernow wishes to suppress Evertype's books and discourage people from knowing that they are available. Certainly, in offering a joint first prize to the Kesva/Cowethas and no other prizes to any other publishers, Gorseth Kernow is making the statement that no books of merit, apart from yet another KK dictionary and a re-spelt pamphlet of children's songs, appeared in 2009. 

I don't think they're right about that. 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/


From craig at agantavas.org  Tue Aug 17 19:57:14 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:57:14 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <D8BB1992-841D-4B75-B5F3-BF796C60BD19@agantavas.org>

It is surprising (or maybe it isn't).  The children's song book isn't  
original, but a mere translation into SWF/M of a UC book which was  
issued decades ago.  I have a copy here somewhere.

I was pleased that 'Cornovia' received a Commendation but, in a way,  
disappointed as well.  Yes, it's a book which informs, with up-to-date  
facts and full-colour illustrations, of Cornwall's prehistory and pre- 
Norman history. Irrespective of that, the photographers and the  
publisher turned it into one of the most stunning productions I've  
ever seen.  I still pick it up and find it hard to believe that the  
name on the cover is mine!  It must have been some book and some  
production to have beaten that.

Perhaps 'Nautilus' didn't contain enough Cornish-related content.   
I'll try again when the new one I've just started on ('The Amezola  
Log' - a modern Dan Brown-type story with the 1595 Spanish raid on  
Mount's Bay at its core).  Perhaps that will do better.

However, 200,000 words of Cornish published by Michael never got as  
much as a nod.  I do find that a little strange.

Craig


On 17 Est 2010, at 19:22, Michael Everson wrote:

> About a month ago, the Holyer an Gof 2010 winners have been  
> announced: http://www.gorsethkernow.org.uk/english/competitions/awards10.htm
>
> THe prize was shared between two books:
>
> Joint Winner ? Cornish Language Board. An Gerlyver Meur. Dr. Ken  
> George.
> Joint Winner ? Kowethas an Yeth. Kanow Flehes. (compilation).
>
> So, the winning prize in the Cornish language section was shared  
> jointly between yet another of Ken George's KK dictionaries (the one  
> that says that wosa/woja should become wozha) and a re-edition of a  
> short book of children's songs in the SWF/M. I haven't seen the  
> latter, so I don't can't comment on it, but at http://www.learncornish.net/books-novels/kanow-flehes 
>  the book is described thus:
>
> "This book and DVD set includes 24 children?s songs in Cornish. The  
> book uses the Standard Written Form and features illustrations by  
> Rachel Axtell, and the DVD contains videos of the songs being sung  
> by children from Marlborough Primary School in Falmouth. Kanow  
> Flehes is suitable for use by schools as well as families who are  
> teaching their children Cornish. An English translation of the songs  
> is included on the DVD."
>
> Hey, neat. Twenty-four children's songs.
>
> I can't speak for other publishers who forward books in the Cornish  
> language category, but I can say that Evertype forwarded eight books  
> to the competition:
>
> ** Cornish Language section
> Alys in Pow an Anethow (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland)
> Adro dhe?n B?s in Peswar Ugans D?dh (Around the World in 80 Days)
> Kensa Lyver Redya (A First Reading Book)
> Jowal Lethesow: Whedhel a?n West a Gernow (The Lyonesse Stone: A  
> Story of the West of Cornwall)
>
> ** Adult fiction section
> Nautilus
>
> ** Non-fiction section
> Lyver Pejadow rag Kenyver Jorna: Cornish Daily Prayer
> A Concise Dictionary of Cornish Place-Names
> Skeul an Tavas: A coursebook in Standard Cornish
>
> In previous years, High Commendations and Commendations have been  
> awarded for books in the Cornish Language Section.
>
> For books published in 2009, no such awards have been made. No High  
> Commendations. No Commendations. To anybody.
>
> Certainly I *never* expected to win first prize. That would have  
> been unthinkable. I'm an Irish publisher who has opposed Kernewek  
> Kemmyn, after all. Indeed I would have predicted that politics  
> *would* have handed first prize to Ken George. That he had to share  
> the prize must be a political statement. I suspect the reasoning was  
> "Well, we can't give a prize to the KK book on its own, since we're  
> supposed to be supporting the SWF, and there aren't really any books  
> published in the SWF except this reprint here...."
>
> But I did expect *some* notice to be taken of the 125,000 words of  
> Cornish which I published in 2009. So what was the rationale here?  
> It was either "Well, we could give a commendation to this Irish  
> publisher's books. They are rather nice-looking. The Cornish is even  
> good." or it was "Oh, no, we'd better not commend this Irish  
> publisher's books. He's not using either KK or the SWF. We mustn't  
> have that."
>
> What do you think?
>
> It almost looks as though Gorseth Kernow wishes to suppress  
> Evertype's books and discourage people from knowing that they are  
> available. Certainly, in offering a joint first prize to the Kesva/ 
> Cowethas and no other prizes to any other publishers, Gorseth Kernow  
> is making the statement that no books of merit, apart from yet  
> another KK dictionary and a re-spelt pamphlet of children's songs,  
> appeared in 2009.
>
> I don't think they're right about that.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From nige.martin at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 08:41:09 2010
From: nige.martin at gmail.com (Nige Martin)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:41:09 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <D8BB1992-841D-4B75-B5F3-BF796C60BD19@agantavas.org>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<D8BB1992-841D-4B75-B5F3-BF796C60BD19@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=bjcxMNMvZNL4QJ=XUmvyBtdvPu97juC3KV5hL@mail.gmail.com>

This email is not worthy of publishing on the list, it is for the
moderator's consideration.

I have to agree, the decision concerning the Cornish Language entries does
appear a little strange but, I do not know what criteria was used during the
judging process.  To Michael, Craig and others that produce KS material;
don't let 'them' grind you down, please continue with your endeavours.
Although I do not possess the capacity to influence the masses, I am using
word-of-mouth to promote KS within my community.

During a recent Public Affairs course in Budapest I provided a precis of
Cornwall's history and made it absolutely clear that Cornwall has it's own
language and that, in my humble opinion, KS is the purest form.  Here at
NATO Mons, Belgium my daughter (President of the International/American High
School students) actively promotes all things Cornish, whilst I do the same
within the workplace.  Small but significant steps for us (my daughter and
I).

Some thoughts that occurred to me:
Has anyone enquired about the reasons why no recognition, commendation or
awards for the KS publications were forthcoming?
Perhaps one could request a copy of the criteria used by the judges; either
by telephone, post or email (pellgowser at btinternet.com). Has anyone
established linkeage between the judges, gorsedhkernow and recipients of the
awards?
Keep up the great work everyone.

Nigel
On 17 August 2010 20:57, Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org> wrote:

> It is surprising (or maybe it isn't).  The children's song book isn't
> original, but a mere translation into SWF/M of a UC book which was issued
> decades ago.  I have a copy here somewhere.
>
> I was pleased that 'Cornovia' received a Commendation but, in a way,
> disappointed as well.  Yes, it's a book which informs, with up-to-date facts
> and full-colour illustrations, of Cornwall's prehistory and pre-Norman
> history. Irrespective of that, the photographers and the publisher turned it
> into one of the most stunning productions I've ever seen.  I still pick it
> up and find it hard to believe that the name on the cover is mine!  It must
> have been some book and some production to have beaten that.
>
> Perhaps 'Nautilus' didn't contain enough Cornish-related content.  I'll try
> again when the new one I've just started on ('The Amezola Log' - a modern
> Dan Brown-type story with the 1595 Spanish raid on Mount's Bay at its core).
>  Perhaps that will do better.
>
> However, 200,000 words of Cornish published by Michael never got as much as
> a nod.  I do find that a little strange.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 17 Est 2010, at 19:22, Michael Everson wrote:
>
> About a month ago, the Holyer an Gof 2010 winners have been announced:
>> http://www.gorsethkernow.org.uk/english/competitions/awards10.htm
>>
>> THe prize was shared between two books:
>>
>> Joint Winner ? Cornish Language Board. An Gerlyver Meur. Dr. Ken George.
>> Joint Winner ? Kowethas an Yeth. Kanow Flehes. (compilation).
>>
>> So, the winning prize in the Cornish language section was shared jointly
>> between yet another of Ken George's KK dictionaries (the one that says that
>> wosa/woja should become wozha) and a re-edition of a short book of
>> children's songs in the SWF/M. I haven't seen the latter, so I don't can't
>> comment on it, but at
>> http://www.learncornish.net/books-novels/kanow-flehes the book is
>> described thus:
>>
>> "This book and DVD set includes 24 children?s songs in Cornish. The book
>> uses the Standard Written Form and features illustrations by Rachel Axtell,
>> and the DVD contains videos of the songs being sung by children from
>> Marlborough Primary School in Falmouth. Kanow Flehes is suitable for use by
>> schools as well as families who are teaching their children Cornish. An
>> English translation of the songs is included on the DVD."
>>
>> Hey, neat. Twenty-four children's songs.
>>
>> I can't speak for other publishers who forward books in the Cornish
>> language category, but I can say that Evertype forwarded eight books to the
>> competition:
>>
>> ** Cornish Language section
>> Alys in Pow an Anethow (Alice's Adventures in Wonderland)
>> Adro dhe?n B?s in Peswar Ugans D?dh (Around the World in 80 Days)
>> Kensa Lyver Redya (A First Reading Book)
>> Jowal Lethesow: Whedhel a?n West a Gernow (The Lyonesse Stone: A Story of
>> the West of Cornwall)
>>
>> ** Adult fiction section
>> Nautilus
>>
>> ** Non-fiction section
>> Lyver Pejadow rag Kenyver Jorna: Cornish Daily Prayer
>> A Concise Dictionary of Cornish Place-Names
>> Skeul an Tavas: A coursebook in Standard Cornish
>>
>> In previous years, High Commendations and Commendations have been awarded
>> for books in the Cornish Language Section.
>>
>> For books published in 2009, no such awards have been made. No High
>> Commendations. No Commendations. To anybody.
>>
>> Certainly I *never* expected to win first prize. That would have been
>> unthinkable. I'm an Irish publisher who has opposed Kernewek Kemmyn, after
>> all. Indeed I would have predicted that politics *would* have handed first
>> prize to Ken George. That he had to share the prize must be a political
>> statement. I suspect the reasoning was "Well, we can't give a prize to the
>> KK book on its own, since we're supposed to be supporting the SWF, and there
>> aren't really any books published in the SWF except this reprint here...."
>>
>> But I did expect *some* notice to be taken of the 125,000 words of Cornish
>> which I published in 2009. So what was the rationale here? It was either
>> "Well, we could give a commendation to this Irish publisher's books. They
>> are rather nice-looking. The Cornish is even good." or it was "Oh, no, we'd
>> better not commend this Irish publisher's books. He's not using either KK or
>> the SWF. We mustn't have that."
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> It almost looks as though Gorseth Kernow wishes to suppress Evertype's
>> books and discourage people from knowing that they are available. Certainly,
>> in offering a joint first prize to the Kesva/Cowethas and no other prizes to
>> any other publishers, Gorseth Kernow is making the statement that no books
>> of merit, apart from yet another KK dictionary and a re-spelt pamphlet of
>> children's songs, appeared in 2009.
>>
>> I don't think they're right about that.
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 14:53:55 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:53:55 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=bjcxMNMvZNL4QJ=XUmvyBtdvPu97juC3KV5hL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<D8BB1992-841D-4B75-B5F3-BF796C60BD19@agantavas.org>
	<AANLkTi=bjcxMNMvZNL4QJ=XUmvyBtdvPu97juC3KV5hL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42B5C361-CED5-4438-B3A6-2FA2B47F9777@gmail.com>

As far as the judges of Holyer an Gof are concerned it would seem that  
orthography trumps quality.
The two permitted orthographies are KK (which was rightly rejected by  
the Commission) and the SWF.
Neither of the two winning volumes seems to be of outstanding value.
Moreover the KK dictionary has changed the phonology of KK and in so  
doing has rendered the orthography wholly unphonemic?
which we were told was the sine qua non of KK . Not that any such  
changes will affect anybody's pronunciation; since all speakers of
KK actually speak UC (plus a few errors of their own, e.g. privv  
'worm', bizz 'world').

The SWF on the other hand in both its forms is a political compromise,  
which is as inauthentic as it is incoherent. It is unlikely to last  
long?at least in its present form.
The revival needs to be built on scholarly criteria, not political  
fudge.
What a missed opportunity!

Nicholas Williams

On 18 Est 2010, at 08:41, Nige Martin wrote:

> This email is not worthy of publishing on the list, it is for the  
> moderator's consideration.
>
> I have to agree, the decision concerning the Cornish Language  
> entries does appear a little strange but, I do not know what  
> criteria was used during the judging process.  To Michael, Craig and  
> others that produce KS material; don't let 'them' grind you down,  
> please continue with your endeavours.  Although I do not possess the  
> capacity to influence the masses, I am using word-of-mouth to  
> promote KS within my community.

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From everson at evertype.com  Wed Aug 18 15:09:54 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:09:54 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>,
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>

I bcc'd a number of bards in my message of earlier. Here is the response of one of them:

On 18 Aug 2010, at 10:58, a bard wrote:

> Y hyll bos dhe'n liha dew skila ma na waynyas lyver vyth y'gas rol a lyvrow Evertype.
> Onan a via (hag es yw y verkya) dreven nag yns skrifys yn skrifa-komposter ewn rag  dyskans fleghes yowynk.
> Aral via... mes ny vedhav profya an tybyans....

One wasn't aware that the Gorseth was getting involved in judging orthography.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Wed Aug 18 15:49:50 2010
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:49:50 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <42B5C361-CED5-4438-B3A6-2FA2B47F9777@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100818144949.A49A013BC11A@mail.ip.co.at>

Nicholas wheg, 

Pandr?yw dha breus jy a liesplek an ger ?bys??

Dan

 

  _____  

From: nicholas williams
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 3:54 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010

 

As far as the judges of Holyer an Gof are concerned it would seem that orthography trumps quality.

The two permitted orthographies are KK (which was rightly rejected by the Commission) and the SWF.

Neither of the two winning volumes seems to be of outstanding value.

Moreover the KK dictionary has changed the phonology of KK and in so doing has rendered the orthography wholly unphonemic?

which we were told was the sine qua non of KK . Not that any such changes will affect anybody's pronunciation; since all speakers of

KK actually speak UC (plus a few errors of their own, e.g. privv 'worm', bizz 'world').

 

The SWF on the other hand in both its forms is a political compromise, which is as inauthentic as it is incoherent. It is unlikely to last long?at least in its present form. 

The revival needs to be built on scholarly criteria, not political fudge.

What a missed opportunity!

 

Nicholas Williams

 

On 18 Est 2010, at 08:41, Nige Martin wrote:





This email is not worthy of publishing on the list, it is for the moderator's consideration.

 

I have to agree, the decision concerning the Cornish Language entries does appear a little strange but, I do not know what criteria was used during the judging process.  To Michael, Craig and others that produce KS material; don't let 'them' grind you down, please continue with your endeavours.  Although I do not possess the capacity to influence the masses, I am using word-of-mouth to promote KS within my community.

 

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Wed Aug 18 16:26:33 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:26:33 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <20100818144949.A49A013BC11A@mail.ip.co.at>
References: <20100818144949.A49A013BC11A@mail.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <CC556174-E9D9-46EB-BEC5-105BA8EE0C26@gmail.com>

Py ger esta ow m?nya, 'worlds' b? 'fingers'?
Fingers, martesen.

Dre reson Lhuyd dhe screfa b?z, byz?as AB: 54c ha boz?as AB: 243a,
yth hevel bos res dhyn avowa bos b?s, besias an formys ewn.
Byttegens ny vynsen vy dampnya b?s, besyas. An re-na yw
an formys comendys gans Nance ha gans Neil in y erlyvryn.

Nicholas

On 18 Est 2010, at 15:49, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> Pandr?yw dha breus jy a liesplek an ger ?bys??
>

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From everson at evertype.com  Wed Aug 18 16:35:51 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:35:51 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>,
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
	<04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com>

Here is the response of another of those bards, along with my response:

On 18 Aug 2010, at 00:52, a bard wrote:

> Dear Mr Everson,
> 
> I don't think we've met, I've no knowledge of your products, I'm no supporter of any publisher per se, nor am I a supporter of any single Cornish language variant, but I am honoured to be a bard of Gorsedh Kernow. 

As well you should be. 

> I do not know who comprises the Holyer an Gof committee. However, the bards I know are honourable men and women who think for themselves, select principled criteria, and make rational judgements based on those criteria.

I don't know who they are either. I'm sure they're very nice people. Just as I'm sure you and I are. 

The fact, however, is that in previous years in the Cornish Language section of this prize secondary and tertiary prizes (High Commendation and Commendation) were given for books entered, and that this year such prizes *were* awarded in other categories. 

The fact that my books (which are really rather splendid) were snubbed appears to be a deliberate political decision on the part of a person or persons within the Gorseth. 

> I'm interested to hear of your books; I wish them success.

If you would like to see what was submitted, see http://astore.amazon.co.uk/kernowek-21 -- And if you'd like to see even more, you can go to amazon.co.uk and type in "evertype" and "cornish". You can use Amazon's "Look Inside!" feature to see what the books look like. I'm not even lobbying you to buy them; you can look for free. 

> I am sorry to think you are disappointed, but I suspect there is increasing and intense competition in your field.

To be honest, I'm not disappointed for my own sake. I'm disappointed for the sake of the Gorseth. Intense competition, you say? Perhaps so. In fact (though you might not know it) in 2009 I published more new books in Cornish than any other publisher. 

But I wasn't crowded out by other publishers winning the High Commendations and Commendations, either. This year, it was decided to give only a joint First Prize to the Kesva and Cowethas, and to snub everybody else. I say again: The Holyer an Gof committee has told the world that in their view, apart from a fat KK dictionary and a skinny reprint of some kiddies' songs, no books of merit appeared in 2009.

That doesn't look very "honourable". It looks like a political stitch-up. Give a prize to the Kemmyn book, and share it with the SWF reprint (of a mere 24 songs) and dismiss everything else. 

Like 125,000 words of Cornish-language fiction.

> You ask me what I think.

I did, and I thank you for telling me.

> I think it is clear that you care deeply about Cornish-language material. I salute anyone working to advance Cornish culture.

I do, and I thank you for saying so. In fact, the response of Holyer an Gof has not daunted me. It will not deter me from continuing to publish, either. For my part, I hope to honour the legacy of Gwas Myghal, Henry Jenner. 

> However, whilst I can understand your frustration, I fail to see the rationale of your public utterance. I'm concerned that some will not see it as a constructive way to engage with Gorsedh Kernow or initiate a dialogue of enquiry  or mutual understanding with the H an G committee.

I have made a "public utterance" because the choices made this year reflect *badly* on the Gorseth and on that competition. 

You'd never heard of my books. The Holyer prize, in snubbing them, helps to make sure that nobody else hears of them either. And I do say "snub" because nothing *prevented* them from Commending anything except a prejudice against ... well, what? A "foreign" publisher? A critic of KK? A user of an orthography that corrects identified mistakes in the SWF? The translator? The book covers and typography are attractive enough. And the Holyer an Gof rules did not specify which orthographies were "acceptable" and which were not. Nothing prevented Commendation or High Commendation but a choice to refrain from recognizing eight books from one publisher -- the one publisher who published more Cornish-language content than any other in 2009. 

Or from recognizing any of the books which Agan Tavas or Spyrys a Gernow submitted. I haven't made this complaint because of my own ego or craving for glory. I've made it because this year, "fairness" was wanting. I can't imagine "principled criteria" that would have made this year's awards different from previous years. 

No one in the Gorseth or on the Holyer an Gof committee has never communicated to me, apart from sending an invitation to the prize ceremony which arrived only a day before the event because they hadn't put enough international postage to get the invitation to me in Ireland in time. I'm certainly glad I didn't spend the ?200 it would have cost me to attend. 

I will of course submit more books next year. Two were published in February -- a new edition of Jenner's Handbook, and a bilingual novel by Alan Kent.

I have sent out my e-mail to a number of bards whose addresses I have, because I think that this stinks. I want to encourage you and your fellow bards to talk about this. It's all very well to be sure that honourable people made rational judgements. But from here in the trenches it looks otherwise. I thought it important that some of the bards learned this.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/


From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Thu Aug 19 07:01:35 2010
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:01:35 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] bys, besies
In-Reply-To: <CC556174-E9D9-46EB-BEC5-105BA8EE0C26@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100819060136.86B7013BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>

En wir, hedn ew ger a wruga vy menya. Gromercy rag dha worthyp. E?n versyon a erlevren Neil eus genam, yma: bez/beez (m.) ?ias; na wora?vy mars ew ?ias leverys [j at s] bo [?i:@s]. Martesen th ew res dodho gorra ??as etto.

Dan

 

  _____  

From: nicholas williams
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:27 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010

 

Py ger esta ow m?nya, 'worlds' b? 'fingers'?

Fingers, martesen.

 

Dre reson Lhuyd dhe screfa b?z, byz?as AB: 54c ha boz?as AB: 243a, yth hevel bos res dhyn avowa bos b?s, besias an formys ewn. Byttegens ny vynsen vy dampnya b?s, besyas. An re-na yw an formys comendys gans Nance ha gans Neil in y erlyvryn.

Nicholas

 

On 18 Est 2010, at 15:49, Daniel Prohaska wrote:





Pandr?yw dha breus jy a liesplek an ger ?bys??

 

 

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From everson at evertype.com  Thu Aug 19 10:36:49 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:36:49 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] bys, besies
In-Reply-To: <20100819060136.86B7013BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>
References: <20100819060136.86B7013BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <CCE5C7F0-AA7F-4AA6-92C5-0DAA942AA1F5@evertype.com>

On 19 Aug 2010, at 07:01, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> En wir, hedn ew ger a wruga vy menya. Gromercy rag dha worthyp. E?n versyon a erlevren Neil eus genam, yma: bez/beez (m.) ?ias; na wora?vy mars ew ?ias leverys [j at s] bo [?i:@s]. Martesen th ew res dodho gorra ??as etto.

Evidently both besyas and besias have currency in the revived language.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 11:02:57 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:02:57 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] bys, besies
In-Reply-To: <20100819060136.86B7013BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>
References: <20100819060136.86B7013BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <143E1636-C213-47E0-BDE9-BA78314FEA2D@gmail.com>

A pe [be'zi:@s] intendys ganso, th'esoma ow cresy ev dhe screfa  
<bezeeas>.

On 19 Est 2010, at 07:01, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> En wir, hedn ew ger a wruga vy menya. Gromercy rag dha worthyp. E?n  
> versyon a erlevren Neil eus genam, yma: bez/beez (m.) ?ias; na  
> wora?vy mars ew ?ias leverys [j at s] bo [?i:@s]. Martesen th ew res  
> dodho gorra ??as etto.
> Dan
>
> From: nicholas williams
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:27 PM
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
>
> Py ger esta ow m?nya, 'worlds' b? 'fingers'?
> Fingers, martesen.
>
> Dre reson Lhuyd dhe screfa b?z, byz?as AB: 54c ha boz?as AB: 243a,  
> yth hevel bos res dhyn avowa bos b?s, besias an formys ewn.  
> Byttegens ny vynsen vy dampnya b?s, besyas. An re-na yw an formys  
> comendys gans Nance ha gans Neil in y erlyvryn.
> Nicholas
>
> On 18 Est 2010, at 15:49, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
>
> Pandr?yw dha breus jy a liesplek an ger ?bys??
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

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From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Thu Aug 19 15:50:34 2010
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:50:34 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] bys, besies
In-Reply-To: <143E1636-C213-47E0-BDE9-BA78314FEA2D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100819145036.35F1113BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>

Ewn os, del gresa?, kyn fia <bes?as> possibel y?wedh, dhe?n leha e?n scrifa composter warlergh Gendall.

Dan

 

  _____  

From: nicholas williams
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 12:03 PM



 

A pe [be'zi:@s] intendys ganso, th'esoma ow cresy ev dhe screfa <bezeeas>.

 

On 19 Est 2010, at 07:01, Daniel Prohaska wrote:





En wir, hedn ew ger a wruga vy menya. Gromercy rag dha worthyp. E?n versyon a erlevren Neil eus genam, yma: bez/beez (m.) ?ias; na wora?vy mars ew ?ias leverys [j at s] bo [?i:@s]. Martesen th ew res dodho gorra ??as etto.

Dan

 

  _____  

From: nicholas williams
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 5:27 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010

 

Py ger esta ow m?nya, 'worlds' b? 'fingers'?

Fingers, martesen.

 

Dre reson Lhuyd dhe screfa b?z, byz?as AB: 54c ha boz?as AB: 243a, yth hevel bos res dhyn avowa bos b?s, besias an formys ewn. Byttegens ny vynsen vy dampnya b?s, besyas. An re-na yw an formys comendys gans Nance ha gans Neil in y erlyvryn.

Nicholas

 

On 18 Est 2010, at 15:49, Daniel Prohaska wrote:






Pandr?yw dha breus jy a liesplek an ger ?bys??

 

 

_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net



 

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From everson at evertype.com  Thu Aug 19 16:28:52 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:28:52 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] bys, besies
In-Reply-To: <20100819145036.35F1113BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>
References: <20100819145036.35F1113BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <963A8FBC-62A2-46FD-A908-C2C51FCB3B82@evertype.com>

Elsewhere, Albert wrote:

> Favereau gives both [bi'zi?d] and ['bizj?d] as established dialectal realisations of 'fingers' - which is exactly parallel to the situation we now have in Revived Cornish.


Evidently we have grounds for both besias and besyas on a number of counts.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Aug 19 16:32:19 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:32:19 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] bys, besies
In-Reply-To: <20100819145036.35F1113BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>
References: <20100819145036.35F1113BC1A3@mail.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <796E4189-616D-4DF5-AE29-2A7600CE345B@gmail.com>

Ny worama adro dhe hedna. P?r gales yw leverel pandr'yw yw y spellyans  
ev, dre reson y system dhe jaunjya kebmys.
Certan oma nag yw besias intendys gans Neil gans <bezias>,, saw  
martesen gwell via govyn orto y honen.

Nicholas

On 19 Est 2010, at 15:50, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> dhe?n leha e?n scrifa composter warlergh Gendall.

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From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com  Sun Aug 22 20:17:38 2010
From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (WILSON NANCY)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:17:38 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
	<04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>
	<8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>

I now have my UCR copy of Testament Noweth and NJWilliams UCR Gerlyver to
help me with any 'stumbling' in the texts. Both books are from
Evertype/Spyrys and I highly recommend them. They rather reinforce my
instinct that UCR, for all it has been so prematurely dumped by most, is
still the richest form of Cornish.
I know these books date from further back than these prizes probably apply
but I am sure they will have been equalled in production quality by the ones
mentioned here so it does seem a shame no commendations were awarded.

Yn Lel,

Ewan.

On 18 August 2010 16:35, Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com> wrote:

> Here is the response of another of those bards, along with my response:
>
> On 18 Aug 2010, at 00:52, a bard wrote:
>
> > Dear Mr Everson,
> >
> > I don't think we've met, I've no knowledge of your products, I'm no
> supporter of any publisher per se, nor am I a supporter of any single
> Cornish language variant, but I am honoured to be a bard of Gorsedh Kernow.
>
> As well you should be.
>
> > I do not know who comprises the Holyer an Gof committee. However, the
> bards I know are honourable men and women who think for themselves, select
> principled criteria, and make rational judgements based on those criteria.
>
> I don't know who they are either. I'm sure they're very nice people. Just
> as I'm sure you and I are.
>
> The fact, however, is that in previous years in the Cornish Language
> section of this prize secondary and tertiary prizes (High Commendation and
> Commendation) were given for books entered, and that this year such prizes
> *were* awarded in other categories.
>
> The fact that my books (which are really rather splendid) were snubbed
> appears to be a deliberate political decision on the part of a person or
> persons within the Gorseth.
>
> > I'm interested to hear of your books; I wish them success.
>
> If you would like to see what was submitted, see
> http://astore.amazon.co.uk/kernowek-21 -- And if you'd like to see even
> more, you can go to amazon.co.uk and type in "evertype" and "cornish". You
> can use Amazon's "Look Inside!" feature to see what the books look like. I'm
> not even lobbying you to buy them; you can look for free.
>
> > I am sorry to think you are disappointed, but I suspect there is
> increasing and intense competition in your field.
>
> To be honest, I'm not disappointed for my own sake. I'm disappointed for
> the sake of the Gorseth. Intense competition, you say? Perhaps so. In fact
> (though you might not know it) in 2009 I published more new books in Cornish
> than any other publisher.
>
> But I wasn't crowded out by other publishers winning the High Commendations
> and Commendations, either. This year, it was decided to give only a joint
> First Prize to the Kesva and Cowethas, and to snub everybody else. I say
> again: The Holyer an Gof committee has told the world that in their view,
> apart from a fat KK dictionary and a skinny reprint of some kiddies' songs,
> no books of merit appeared in 2009.
>
> That doesn't look very "honourable". It looks like a political stitch-up.
> Give a prize to the Kemmyn book, and share it with the SWF reprint (of a
> mere 24 songs) and dismiss everything else.
>
> Like 125,000 words of Cornish-language fiction.
>
> > You ask me what I think.
>
> I did, and I thank you for telling me.
>
> > I think it is clear that you care deeply about Cornish-language material.
> I salute anyone working to advance Cornish culture.
>
> I do, and I thank you for saying so. In fact, the response of Holyer an Gof
> has not daunted me. It will not deter me from continuing to publish, either.
> For my part, I hope to honour the legacy of Gwas Myghal, Henry Jenner.
>
> > However, whilst I can understand your frustration, I fail to see the
> rationale of your public utterance. I'm concerned that some will not see it
> as a constructive way to engage with Gorsedh Kernow or initiate a dialogue
> of enquiry  or mutual understanding with the H an G committee.
>
> I have made a "public utterance" because the choices made this year reflect
> *badly* on the Gorseth and on that competition.
>
> You'd never heard of my books. The Holyer prize, in snubbing them, helps to
> make sure that nobody else hears of them either. And I do say "snub" because
> nothing *prevented* them from Commending anything except a prejudice against
> ... well, what? A "foreign" publisher? A critic of KK? A user of an
> orthography that corrects identified mistakes in the SWF? The translator?
> The book covers and typography are attractive enough. And the Holyer an Gof
> rules did not specify which orthographies were "acceptable" and which were
> not. Nothing prevented Commendation or High Commendation but a choice to
> refrain from recognizing eight books from one publisher -- the one publisher
> who published more Cornish-language content than any other in 2009.
>
> Or from recognizing any of the books which Agan Tavas or Spyrys a Gernow
> submitted. I haven't made this complaint because of my own ego or craving
> for glory. I've made it because this year, "fairness" was wanting. I can't
> imagine "principled criteria" that would have made this year's awards
> different from previous years.
>
> No one in the Gorseth or on the Holyer an Gof committee has never
> communicated to me, apart from sending an invitation to the prize ceremony
> which arrived only a day before the event because they hadn't put enough
> international postage to get the invitation to me in Ireland in time. I'm
> certainly glad I didn't spend the ?200 it would have cost me to attend.
>
> I will of course submit more books next year. Two were published in
> February -- a new edition of Jenner's Handbook, and a bilingual novel by
> Alan Kent.
>
> I have sent out my e-mail to a number of bards whose addresses I have,
> because I think that this stinks. I want to encourage you and your fellow
> bards to talk about this. It's all very well to be sure that honourable
> people made rational judgements. But from here in the trenches it looks
> otherwise. I thought it important that some of the bards learned this.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sun Aug 22 21:05:14 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:05:14 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
	<04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>
	<8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com>
	<AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3AB7EBB2-F49A-46D4-A66A-74A75C025459@gmail.com>

I was the deviser of UCR. I recommended it in Cornish Today as a way  
of retaining the link with the traditional Cornish texts but also  
attempting to systematise their spelling and to remove some of the  
inconsistencies in Unified Cornish. At the same time I criticised KK  
as being based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the sound system  
of Cornish and as using a very largely concocted spelling. This  
criticism, coming as it did from a professional student of the Celtic  
languages, did little to endear me or my efforts to many, and as a  
result UCR was never allowed as a spelling for Gorsedd examinations.  
In consequence UCR did not replace UC; and of course KK users would  
not touch it, since it was the work of the severest critic of KK.

I did not "dump" UCR. I withdrew my support for it because I believed  
that it was too inconsistent and too difficult to be used as a  
compromise orthography for the  whole revival. Instead, with others, I  
was involved in the elaboration of KS which has the merit of using  
traditional graphs (for the most part) and being almost entirely  
phonetic. It is immediately apparent from the spelling of KS how it is  
to be pronounced. In this respect KS is superior to SWF/T, which for  
example, has no way of distinguishing the three separate  
pronunciations of <u> (as short u, long u and long French u [y:]). It  
is of course also greatly superior to SWF/M which uses spellings alien  
to traditional Cornish (notably <hw>, <kw> and <i> in chi 'house',  
etc.); as well as whole string of "etymological" spellings. In SWF,  
for example, "book" is lyver and "number" is niver, but the words are  
a perfect rhyme.  "We see" is gwelyn and "mill" is melin in the SWF,  
but the two words rhyme perfectly. "Tongue, language" is invariably  
tavas in the Cornish texts, but the SWF spells the word <taves>. There  
are many, many more examples of such unnecessary distinctions in the  
SWF.

The essential point to remember, I think, is this: since Cornish has  
no native speakers whose speech we can imitate, we need a spelling  
which is as clear and as unambiguous as possible. Unless our spelling  
is phonetic on the one hand and firmly rooted in traditional Cornish  
spelling, it will not survive.

I am convinced that the SWF as it stands, in both its main and  
traditional forms, needs to undergo major revision. A revision is  
scheduled in 2013. I hope that such a revision proves sufficient. If  
not, I believe that the SWF will ultimately be abandoned?to be  
replaced by a more traditional and less ambiguous orthography.

Nicholas Williams


On 22 Est 2010, at 20:17, WILSON NANCY wrote:

> for all it has been so prematurely dumped by most,

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From ray at spyrys.org  Mon Aug 23 11:17:51 2010
From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:17:51 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
	<04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>
	<8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com>
	<AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>


On 22 Est 2010, at 20:17, WILSON NANCY wrote:

> I now have my UCR copy of Testament Noweth and NJWilliams UCR  
> Gerlyver to help me with any 'stumbling' in the texts. Both books  
> are from Evertype/Spyrys and I highly recommend them. They rather  
> reinforce my instinct that UCR, for all it has been so prematurely  
> dumped by most, is still the richest form of Cornish.

We must remember that the intention of the SWF was that it should be a  
compromise spelling for use in Statutory Education and Public Life  
only.  It was never intended to replace anything that went before.   
With hindsight I think that a big mistake was accepting that what used  
to be referred to as the Single Written Form was in the future to be  
known as the Standard Written Form.  This implies that everything else  
is in some way inferior.

At a personal level I use UCR and will continue to do so and yes it is  
a rich form of Cornish based firmly on the historical texts.  I  
sincerely hope that what ever changes are made to the SWF in 2013 will  
give it the regularity of KS but at the end of the day KS like the SWF  
is a compromise spelling and, apart from the stated uses, not  
something for those of us who wish to imitate Cornish at the high  
point of its history.

Ray Chubb

Portreth
Kernow







From kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com  Mon Aug 23 13:01:24 2010
From: kevin.blackburn1 at ntlworld.com (Herbie Blackburn)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:01:24 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>
Message-ID: <A6ED4D5B58304BC8B2643DAD7A855E06@HomePC>

Not only the 'most conprehensive', but I believe it to be the most
authentic. Since 1980 I have been interested in Celtic languages, and have
been studying them as an amateur purely for interest. I naturally only had
UC as a guide in those early days. As my study is comparative, my interest
was in finding Cornish translations through the centuries that corresponded
to the other Celtic languages. Over the course of this study it is plain
that UC grew out of actual historically written Cornish, and tried to make
some consistency within it. UCR took this to another level, but still did
not lose that link with the past. I have various KK and 'Modern' Cornish
vocabs and glossaries, which really seem to bear no resemblance to
traditional Cornish, not have any natural correspondence to other Celtic
languages.

Like many I rejoiced when UCR came out, in that it seemed a natural
progression of the work to date, and gave us a more complete and cohesive
corpus to work with, without throwing away that past. I too shall continue
to use UCR.

Regards

Herbie

-----Original Message-----
From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net]
On Behalf Of Ray Chubb
Sent: 23 August 2010 11:18
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010


On 22 Est 2010, at 20:17, WILSON NANCY wrote:

> I now have my UCR copy of Testament Noweth and NJWilliams UCR  
> Gerlyver to help me with any 'stumbling' in the texts. Both books  
> are from Evertype/Spyrys and I highly recommend them. They rather  
> reinforce my instinct that UCR, for all it has been so prematurely  
> dumped by most, is still the richest form of Cornish.

We must remember that the intention of the SWF was that it should be a  
compromise spelling for use in Statutory Education and Public Life  
only.  It was never intended to replace anything that went before.   
With hindsight I think that a big mistake was accepting that what used  
to be referred to as the Single Written Form was in the future to be  
known as the Standard Written Form.  This implies that everything else  
is in some way inferior.

At a personal level I use UCR and will continue to do so and yes it is  
a rich form of Cornish based firmly on the historical texts.  I  
sincerely hope that what ever changes are made to the SWF in 2013 will  
give it the regularity of KS but at the end of the day KS like the SWF  
is a compromise spelling and, apart from the stated uses, not  
something for those of us who wish to imitate Cornish at the high  
point of its history.

Ray Chubb

Portreth
Kernow





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From everson at evertype.com  Mon Aug 23 14:14:49 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:14:49 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
	<04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>
	<8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com>
	<AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>
Message-ID: <9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com>

On 23 Aug 2010, at 11:17, Ray Chubb wrote:

> We must remember that the intention of the SWF was that it should be a compromise spelling for use in Statutory Education and Public Life only.

We must remember too that the need for compromise was so that MAGA for instance could publish in an orthography and so that no one would complain that they were using the wrong one. 

> It was never intended to replace anything that went before.  With hindsight I think that a big mistake was accepting that what used to be referred to as the Single Written Form was in the future to be known as the Standard Written Form.  This implies that everything else is in some way inferior.

I don't really see it that way. I think that UC is inferior to UCR. It is missing the phoneme /?/ entirely, which is a mistake. UCR corrected this with "ue", now written "eu" in SWF and KS. UC writes final -p and -k in many monosyllables with long vowels, and we believe now that these consonants were voiced. UCR and the SWF and KS write -b and -g in these words. UC writes 

I believe UCR was an improvement (that is, was superior) to UC. 

UCR is pretty wonderful, but one of the things it doesn't do is help learners predict when vowels are long and when they are short. What KS1 did was to work out a set of rules, ultimately inspired by Jordan's orthography, to make it so that vowel length could be predicted from the spelling. KS1 had to be changed after the SWF specification was published, in order to minimize the distance between the two (we chose to change "beis" to "b?s"/"b?s" for instance), but it still has all the advantages of UCR plus a regular and predictable orthography.

I believe that because of this, KS is an improvement (that is, is superior) to UCR. A regular and predictable orthography offers more to learners of an endangered language than an ambiguous orthography does, in my opinion.

> At a personal level I use UCR and will continue to do so and yes it is a rich form of Cornish based firmly on the historical texts. I sincerely hope that what ever changes are made to the SWF in 2013 will give it the regularity of KS

Indeed, so do I.

> but at the end of the day KS like the SWF is a compromise spelling and, apart from the stated uses, not something for those of us who wish to imitate Cornish at the high point of its history.

There are two points here which are interesting. The first is that KS is a compromise spelling with stated uses. Now, KS does support both RMC and RLC dialect choices, but why wouldn't it? But does this mar KS or make it unsuitable?

I believe that the only feature of KS which is not really found in the texts is its regular distinction of "i" for long [i?] and "y" for short [?] in stressed monosyllables. But at the same time, "gwin gwydn" does not seem particularly unnatural or objectionable. I certainly can't see an advantage to UC or UCR "gwyn gwyn". I know from talking to Ray in the past that he's not fond of "gwin gwynn", and indeed he might prefer "gwin gwyn" -- but KS's compromise is to support both pre-occlusion and non-pre-occlusion, so we're simply obliged to offer a "dn"/"nn" alternation.

KS doesn't have a "stated use". It is for general use. That's why we have published literature in it.

The second point of interest is Ray's suggestion that Cornish had "a high point". I don't know. Who says? Is the Ordinalia "better" than B?wnans Ke or the Creacyon an B?s? Which is more or less accessible? We cannot know what Jenner or Nance would have done had Tregear and B?wnans Ke been available to them. 

I don't think it can really be said that KS is "inauthentic". Where it has trade-offs, it is to increase functionality. I believe, with Herbie, that UCR was a natural progression of the work to date. But the work has continued, and I believe that KS is the natural continuation of that work.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/


From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug 23 14:31:29 2010
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:31:29 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <A6ED4D5B58304BC8B2643DAD7A855E06@HomePC>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>
	<A6ED4D5B58304BC8B2643DAD7A855E06@HomePC>
Message-ID: <6D88F61E-2B69-457C-847C-B7905734A94F@yahoo.co.uk>

My Cornish studies began with UC, using books by Mordon Nance, Caradar  
Smith, Peter Pool and Dick Gendall for the most part. Later on, I  
found UCR quite easy to read, as I do KS and the MC version of SWF/T.  
All look (to my eyes) pretty much how MC-based revived Cornish  
'should' look, although some features in the SWF/T do tend to annoy.

UC is still my preferred form, though, and it's what I use daily. Of  
course, it's also what the bulk of the Revived Cornish corpus has been  
written in, so even those who choose not to write UC pretty much have  
to come to grips with it if they want to read any of these modern  
classics.

To be frank, that's pretty much my attitude towards KS at present:  
I've no current intention of writing in it, certainly not before the  
2013 SWF Review process is behind us. But I do enjoy reading in it. It  
does help, of course, that so much of the KS literature is written in  
such good Cornish! And I do think that authenticist Cornish publishers  
should be open to publishing works written in KS.

The KS diacritics (so extravagantly loathed and excoriated by some of  
the Emskemmynnyonn) don't get in the way of reading, I find, as they  
don't much change the word shapes. Mostly, I take little notice of the  
accents when reading, but if I'm uncertain about the value of a vowel,  
all I have to do is note any mark it might have to settle the doubt.

Interestingly enough, after I'd been studying the language for a  
couple of years, I chanced to look at someone's copy of Whitley  
Stokes'  'Pascon agan Arluth' (in which he strove to give a literatim  
transcription of an original MS copy of this great work). My reaction  
was, "That's what I've been learning!" Of course, some of the  
spellings looked a little 'odd', and my vocab wasn't up to  
understanding it all, but that was when I first realised how close UC  
has stuck to historical forms.

However, my reaction to first having KK (and much later SWF/M)  
inflicted upon my poor eyes was quite different; it looked (and still  
looks) uglee, rong, un-Cornish, a djerry-bilt pidgin -- allmoesst az  
iff it had beenn konnkokkted bye (oar fore) summwunn sufferyng from  
akywt annd kronnyk dysslekksya? oar laik thee proe-nunn-see-ayshun  
kollumm ynn ann oeld-fashunned frayz boek four forrenn too-rissts!


Eddie Foirbeis Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem

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From everson at evertype.com  Mon Aug 23 14:44:57 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:44:57 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <6D88F61E-2B69-457C-847C-B7905734A94F@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>
	<A6ED4D5B58304BC8B2643DAD7A855E06@HomePC>
	<6D88F61E-2B69-457C-847C-B7905734A94F@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5339C136-40D0-4F5E-BE0E-6111BAA79DBC@evertype.com>

Thank you for your gracious comments, Eddie. They are appreciated.

On 23 Aug 2010, at 14:31, Eddie Climo wrote:

> To be frank, that's pretty much my attitude towards KS at present: I've no current intention of writing in it, certainly not before the 2013 SWF Review process is behind us. But I do enjoy reading in it. It does help, of course, that so much of the KS literature is written in such good Cornish! And I do think that authenticist Cornish publishers should be open to publishing works written in KS.
> 
> The KS diacritics (so extravagantly loathed and excoriated by some of the Emskemmynnyonn) don't get in the way of reading, I find, as they don't much change the word shapes. Mostly, I take little notice of the accents when reading, but if I'm uncertain about the value of a vowel, all I have to do is note any mark it might have to settle the doubt.
> 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From ray at spyrys.org  Mon Aug 23 15:51:19 2010
From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:51:19 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
	<04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>
	<8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com>
	<AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>
	<9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org>

Surely the historical high point for Cornish was up to the end of the  
period when it was recognised and supported by the establishment of  
its day i.e. 1549 after which Glasney College was dissolved.

Following that people were free to do what they liked with Cornish and  
did so.  Pretty much like the language revival in the last two to  
three decades :-)

On 23 Est 2010, at 14:14, Michael Everson wrote:

> The second point of interest is Ray's suggestion that Cornish had "a  
> high point". I don't know. Who says? Is the Ordinalia "better" than  
> B?wnans Ke or the Creacyon an B?s? Which is more or less accessible?  
> We cannot know what Jenner or Nance would have done had Tregear and  
> B?wnans Ke been available to them.

Ray Chubb

Portreth
Kernow







From njawilliams at gmail.com  Mon Aug 23 18:16:42 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:16:42 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
	<04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>
	<8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com>
	<AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>
	<9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com>
	<78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org>
Message-ID: <0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>

Ray is completely right about the dissolution of Glasney.
	BM, Tregear and the manuscript of BK all date from the 16th century.  
CW was transcribed in 1612 but is probably a copy of an early 16th  
century work. The Tudor period is the best period of the language on  
which to base the revival. Much of our literature was written at that  
time and it is also the period closest to the present that still used  
traditional orthography. All subsequent texts by native writers appear  
in ad hoc orthographies, more or less based on English spelling. It is  
for that reason that attempting to base the revived language
on the Bosons, Rowe, Gwavas, Jenkins , etc., has always seemed self- 
defeating, because it means ignoring the best of the literature, and  
using inferior Cornish as one's basic texts. It has also meant  
rewriting words and phrases from Tregear and CW in the spelling used  
by Nicholas Boson. Even at its worst, however, RLC does resemble  
Cornish.
	KK marks a wholly new departure in the revival, in which it was  
assumed that Cornish was little more than a dialect of Breton, and  
could be spelt accordingly. Of course Cornish is not a dialect of  
Breton in any sense. Indeed there are ways in which Cornish is closer  
to Welsh than to Breton (e.g. the maintenance of dh and th, and the  
absence in both Cornish and Welsh of nasal vowels). Moreover Cornish  
is unlike both Welsh and Breton in that it assibilates /d/ to /z/ or / 
dZ/ and exhibits pre-occlusion. Furthermore there can be no  
justification for using modern a priori graphs when resuscitating a  
language which itself was written in a traditional orthography.
	KK is without any justification from the phonetic or orthographic  
point of view. Unfortunately those who came to Cornish through KK are  
acclimatised to its inauthentic graphs and believe that <hw>, <ko, ka,  
ku, kr, kl, kw> and "etymological" spellings like <taves>, <melin>,  
<niver>, <piw>, etc. are justified and indeed desirable. As a result  
the SWF/M is disfigured by them as well. To say nothing of the  
mistaken phonology of KK, which leads to words like pr?v "worm" and  
b?s "world", for example, being wrongly pronounced with short /i/ as  
"privv" and "bizz". These mispronunciations persist in the SWF.

	The damage which KK has done to the revival will be eventually be  
undone. One thing is certain, however: the SWF/M and T as they stand  
will not be the last word in Cornish orthography.

Nicholas


On 23 Est 2010, at 15:51, Ray Chubb wrote:

> Surely the historical high point for Cornish was up to the end of  
> the period when it was recognised and supported by the establishment  
> of its day i.e. 1549 after which Glasney College was dissolved.

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From ray at spyrys.org  Tue Aug 24 08:32:34 2010
From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:32:34 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Holyer an Gof 2010
In-Reply-To: <0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk> <4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk>
	<78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com>
	<BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl>
	<04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com>
	<8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com>
	<AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org>
	<9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com>
	<78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org>
	<0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org>


On 23 Est 2010, at 18:16, nicholas williams wrote:

> Ray is completely right about the dissolution of Glasney.
> 	BM, Tregear and the manuscript of BK all date from the 16th  
> century. CW was transcribed in 1612 but is probably a copy of an  
> early 16th century work. The Tudor period is the best period of the  
> language on which to base the revival.

But even so, I wonder if Tregear would have larded his Cornish with so  
much English had he still been working amongst a brotherhood of canons  
all engaged in work with Cornish.

Ray Chubb

Portreth
Kernow




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From j.mills at email.com  Tue Aug 24 09:28:23 2010
From: j.mills at email.com (j.mills at email.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 04:28:23 -0400
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>
	<F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org>
Message-ID: <8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com>


Ray Chubb wrote,

"But even so, I wonder if Tregear would have larded his Cornish with so much English had he still been working amongst a brotherhood of canons all engaged in work with Cornish."

I think that the reason Tregear's Cornish is the way it is, is because it is only a rough draft. I suspect Tregear's Cornish was much better than is evident from this manuscript. But we will probably never know.

Ol an gwella,
Jon

_____________________________________ 
Dr. Jon Mills, 
School of European Culture and Languages, 
University of Kent

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 09:39:06 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:39:06 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>
	<F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org>
	<8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com>

To the modern reader it seems as though Tregear didn't have a  
sufficiently large Cornish vocabulary.
His listeners on the other hand were probably greatly impressed by his  
command of theological language?albeit in English.


On 24 Est 2010, at 09:28, j.mills at email.com wrote:

> I think that the reason Tregear's Cornish is the way it is, is  
> because it is only a rough draft. I suspect Tregear's Cornish was  
> much better than is evident from this manuscript. But we will  
> probably never know.

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From everson at evertype.com  Tue Aug 24 10:45:06 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:45:06 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>
	<F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org>
	<8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <629584FC-1B55-4D61-B02E-1232D14C73F1@evertype.com>

On 24 Aug 2010, at 09:28, j.mills at email.com wrote:

> I think that the reason Tregear's Cornish is the way it is, is because it is only a rough draft. I suspect Tregear's Cornish was much better than is evident from this manuscript. But we will probably never know.

I was about to say much the same thing. Basically Tregear was translating a complex technical document with specialized vocabulary. That's not easy to do...

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From everson at evertype.com  Tue Aug 24 10:46:38 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 10:46:38 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>
	<F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org>
	<8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com>
	<4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com>

On 24 Aug 2010, at 09:39, nicholas williams wrote:

> To the modern reader it seems as though Tregear didn't have a sufficiently large Cornish vocabulary.
> His listeners on the other hand were probably greatly impressed by his command of theological language?albeit in English.


I was told by an eminent lecturer in Burmese at SOAS in London that when a foreigner who has learnt Burmese speaks it, and uses some of the Pali or Sanskrit loanwords, the Burmese are very impressed and congratulate the foreigner on his excellent Burmese.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From craig at agantavas.org  Tue Aug 24 11:16:23 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:16:23 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>
	<F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org>
	<8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com>
	<4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com>
	<1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <6682AE35-E471-4A03-8C08-27B78D138D5A@agantavas.org>

No scribe writes as many English words into his Cornish as Tregear  
does.  I think we have to take great care which we adopt into Cornish,  
and why we do so.

Craig


On 24 Est 2010, at 10:46, Michael Everson wrote:

> On 24 Aug 2010, at 09:39, nicholas williams wrote:
>
>> To the modern reader it seems as though Tregear didn't have a  
>> sufficiently large Cornish vocabulary.
>> His listeners on the other hand were probably greatly impressed by  
>> his command of theological language?albeit in English.
>
>
> I was told by an eminent lecturer in Burmese at SOAS in London that  
> when a foreigner who has learnt Burmese speaks it, and uses some of  
> the Pali or Sanskrit loanwords, the Burmese are very impressed and  
> congratulate the foreigner on his excellent Burmese.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 12:21:33 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 12:21:33 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <6682AE35-E471-4A03-8C08-27B78D138D5A@agantavas.org>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>
	<F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org>
	<8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com>
	<4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com>
	<1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com>
	<6682AE35-E471-4A03-8C08-27B78D138D5A@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <7736EC7F-94DC-455A-BF66-0E953899210F@gmail.com>

Some words in TH have been adapted to Cornish phonetic type, like  
spryngya, lyftya. These can surely be used.
Interestingly <spryngya, speringya, springya> was confined to Tregear  
until BK was discovered. Now we have

A Christ, re be benegas!
Attomma fyntan spryngys BK 785-86.

Decevya 'deceive' is used by both TH and SA, but the first attestation  
is in Pascon agan Arluth: Pehadoryon rag perna
o desevijs dre satnas 'to redeem sinners who had been deceived by  
Satan' PA 5c. Rebukya is used frequently by TH but the first  
attestation again is in PA: ena y an rebukyas 'then they rebuked him'  
PA 112a and ef a ve veyll rebukis 'he was vilely rebuked' PA 156a.
I have not done a thorough word count, but it always seems to me that  
PA has proportionally more borrowed verbs than any other
text apart from TH and SA; yet in date of composition PA is the oldest  
MC text.
And when it comes to adverbs BK takes the biscuit with ha sekretly bew  
hedre vy ow ro theso a vyth clere 'and secretly as long as you live my  
gift to you will be clear' BK 638-40.

Again forsakya 'forsake' looks like one of Tregear's words; oddly  
enough it is used three times in BM, once by Nicholas Boson in JCH and  
only twice by TH.

The word attendya 'attend, pay attention to' occurs 14 times:
PA x 1
BM x 7
BK x 3
CW x 1
and twice in TH. So this word, though obviously a borrowing, is well  
established long before TH.

For 'disciple' we all learnt dyskybel, plural dyskyblon. I have been  
criticised for using the plural dyscyplys, as though the word came  
from TH.
It does of course, but the first attestations are zyscyplys PA 52a; PA  
55c and dysciplys PC 391.

Moreover TH has some excellent native words not found elsewhere in MC:

coltrebyn 'candlestick'; denlath 'murderers'; an hollsens 'all saints'.

We should perhaps not be too quick to condemn TH's vocabulary out of  
hand.

Nicholas

On 24 Est 2010, at 11:16, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> I think we have to take great care which we adopt into Cornish, and  
> why we do so.

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From craig at agantavas.org  Tue Aug 24 12:28:13 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 12:28:13 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <7736EC7F-94DC-455A-BF66-0E953899210F@gmail.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk>
	<4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com>
	<F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org>
	<8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com>
	<4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com>
	<1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com>
	<6682AE35-E471-4A03-8C08-27B78D138D5A@agantavas.org>
	<7736EC7F-94DC-455A-BF66-0E953899210F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F578C589-2982-4E92-AB47-FAFE701B5FAC@agantavas.org>

It's not a condemnation, just a note of caution.

Craig


On 24 Est 2010, at 12:21, nicholas williams wrote:

> Some words in TH have been adapted to Cornish phonetic type, like  
> spryngya, lyftya. These can surely be used.
> Interestingly <spryngya, speringya, springya> was confined to  
> Tregear until BK was discovered. Now we have
>
> A Christ, re be benegas!
> Attomma fyntan spryngys BK 785-86.
>
> Decevya 'deceive' is used by both TH and SA, but the first  
> attestation is in Pascon agan Arluth: Pehadoryon rag perna
> o desevijs dre satnas 'to redeem sinners who had been deceived by  
> Satan' PA 5c. Rebukya is used frequently by TH but the first  
> attestation again is in PA: ena y an rebukyas 'then they rebuked  
> him' PA 112a and ef a ve veyll rebukis 'he was vilely rebuked' PA  
> 156a.
> I have not done a thorough word count, but it always seems to me  
> that PA has proportionally more borrowed verbs than any other
> text apart from TH and SA; yet in date of composition PA is the  
> oldest MC text.
> And when it comes to adverbs BK takes the biscuit with ha sekretly  
> bew hedre vy ow ro theso a vyth clere 'and secretly as long as you  
> live my gift to you will be clear' BK 638-40.
>
> Again forsakya 'forsake' looks like one of Tregear's words; oddly  
> enough it is used three times in BM, once by Nicholas Boson in JCH  
> and only twice by TH.
>
> The word attendya 'attend, pay attention to' occurs 14 times:
> PA x 1
> BM x 7
> BK x 3
> CW x 1
> and twice in TH. So this word, though obviously a borrowing, is well  
> established long before TH.
>
> For 'disciple' we all learnt dyskybel, plural dyskyblon. I have been  
> criticised for using the plural dyscyplys, as though the word came  
> from TH.
> It does of course, but the first attestations are zyscyplys PA 52a;  
> PA 55c and dysciplys PC 391.
>
> Moreover TH has some excellent native words not found elsewhere in MC:
>
> coltrebyn 'candlestick'; denlath 'murderers'; an hollsens 'all  
> saints'.
>
> We should perhaps not be too quick to condemn TH's vocabulary out of  
> hand.
>
> Nicholas
>
> On 24 Est 2010, at 11:16, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>> I think we have to take great care which we adopt into Cornish, and  
>> why we do so.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From j.mills at email.com  Tue Aug 24 13:37:44 2010
From: j.mills at email.com (j.mills at email.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:37:44 -0400
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <7736EC7F-94DC-455A-BF66-0E953899210F@gmail.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk><4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com><F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org><8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com><4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com><1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com><6682AE35-E471-4A03-8C08-27B78D138D5A@agantavas.org>
	<7736EC7F-94DC-455A-BF66-0E953899210F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CD11A0490E631A-414-66EC@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>


I presume 'coltrebyn' is a reflex of Old Cornish 'cantulbren' [Vocabularium Cornicum: 756].
Ol an gwella
Jon

_____________________________________ 
Dr. Jon Mills, 
School of European Culture and Languages, 
University of Kent



-----Original Message-----
From: nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com>
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:21 pm
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish


Some words in TH have been adapted to Cornish phonetic type, like spryngya, lyftya. These can surely be used.
Interestingly <spryngya, speringya, springya> was confined to Tregear until BK was discovered. Now we have



A Christ, re be benegas!
Attomma fyntan spryngys BK 785-86.


Decevya 'deceive' is used by both TH and SA, but the first attestation is in Pascon agan Arluth: Pehadoryon rag perna
o desevijs dre satnas 'to redeem sinners who had been deceived by Satan' PA 5c. Rebukya is used frequently by TH but the first attestation again is in PA: ena y an rebukyas 'then they rebuked him' PA 112a and ef a ve veyll rebukis 'he was vilely rebuked' PA 156a.
I have not done a thorough word count, but it always seems to me that PA has proportionally more borrowed verbs than any other
text apart from TH and SA; yet in date of composition PA is the oldest MC text. 
And when it comes to adverbs BK takes the biscuit with ha sekretly bew hedre vy ow ro theso a vyth clere 'and secretly as long as you live my gift to you will be clear' BK 638-40.




Again forsakya 'forsake' looks like one of Tregear's words; oddly enough it is used three times in BM, once by Nicholas Boson in JCH and only twice by TH.


The word attendya 'attend, pay attention to' occurs 14 times:
PA x 1
BM x 7
BK x 3
CW x 1
and twice in TH. So this word, though obviously a borrowing, is well established long before TH.


For 'disciple' we all learnt dyskybel, plural dyskyblon. I have been criticised for using the plural dyscyplys, as though the word came from TH.
It does of course, but the first attestations are zyscyplys PA 52a; PA 55c and dysciplys PC 391.
 
Moreover TH has some excellent native words not found elsewhere in MC:


coltrebyn 'candlestick'; denlath 'murderers'; an hollsens 'all saints'.


We should perhaps not be too quick to condemn TH's vocabulary out of hand. 


Nicholas



On 24 Est 2010, at 11:16, Craig Weatherhill wrote:


I think we have to take great care which we adopt into Cornish, and why we do so.



= 

_______________________________________________
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From j.mills at email.com  Tue Aug 24 13:45:53 2010
From: j.mills at email.com (j.mills at email.com)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:45:53 -0400
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <8CD11A0490E631A-414-66EC@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk><4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com><F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org><8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com><4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com><1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com><6682AE35-E471-4A03-8C08-27B78D138D5A@agantavas.org><7736EC7F-94DC-455A-BF66-0E953899210F@gmail.com>
	<8CD11A0490E631A-414-66EC@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CD11A16C58C019-414-674D@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>


If 'coltrebyn' is the form used in Tregear's time, how should we spell this word in KS?
Ol an gwella
Jon


_____________________________________ 
Dr. Jon Mills, 
School of European Culture and Languages, 
University of Kent



-----Original Message-----
From: j.mills at email.com
To: spellyans at kernowek.net
Sent: Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:37 pm
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish


I presume 'coltrebyn' is a reflex of Old Cornish 'cantulbren' [Vocabularium Cornicum: 756].
Ol an gwella
Jon

_____________________________________ 
Dr. Jon Mills, 
School of European Culture and Languages, 
University of Kent



-----Original Message-----
From: nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com>
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:21 pm
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish


Some words in TH have been adapted to Cornish phonetic type, like spryngya, lyftya. These can surely be used. 
Interestingly <spryngya, speringya, springya> was confined to Tregear until BK was discovered. Now we have



A Christ, re be benegas!
Attomma fyntan spryngys BK 785-86.


Decevya 'deceive' is used by both TH and SA, but the first attestation is in Pascon agan Arluth: Pehadoryon rag perna
o desevijs dre satnas 'to redeem sinners who had been deceived by Satan' PA 5c. Rebukya is used frequently by TH but the first attestation again is in PA: ena y an rebukyas 'then they rebuked him' PA 112a and ef a ve veyll rebukis 'he was vilely rebuked' PA 156a.
I have not done a thorough word count, but it always seems to me that PA has proportionally more borrowed verbs than any other
text apart from TH and SA; yet in date of composition PA is the oldest MC text. 
And when it comes to adverbs BK takes the biscuit with ha sekretly bew hedre vy ow ro theso a vyth clere 'and secretly as long as you live my gift to you will be clear' BK 638-40.




Again forsakya 'forsake' looks like one of Tregear's words; oddly enough it is used three times in BM, once by Nicholas Boson in JCH and only twice by TH.


The word attendya 'attend, pay attention to' occurs 14 times:
PA x 1
BM x 7
BK x 3
CW x 1
and twice in TH. So this word, though obviously a borrowing, is well established long before TH.


For 'disciple' we all learnt dyskybel, plural dyskyblon. I have been criticised for using the plural dyscyplys, as though the word came from TH.
It does of course, but the first attestations are zyscyplys PA 52a; PA 55c and dysciplys PC 391.
 
Moreover TH has some excellent native words not found elsewhere in MC:


coltrebyn 'candlestick'; denlath 'murderers'; an hollsens 'all saints'.


We should perhaps not be too quick to condemn TH's vocabulary out of hand. 


Nicholas



On 24 Est 2010, at 11:16, Craig Weatherhill wrote:


I think we have to take great care which we adopt into Cornish, and why we do so.



= 

_______________________________________________
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pellyans at kernowek.net
ttp://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net


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From craig at agantavas.org  Tue Aug 24 14:21:09 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:21:09 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <8CD11A16C58C019-414-674D@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk><4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com><F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org><8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com><4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com><1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com><6682AE35-E471-4A03-8C08-27B78D138D5A@agantavas.org><7736EC7F-94DC-455A-BF66-0E953899210F@gmail.com>
	<8CD11A0490E631A-414-66EC@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CD11A16C58C019-414-674D@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3566CB9C-8896-42C7-8CAB-25014B4D4837@agantavas.org>

SWF/T has this as 'cantolbren'  (interesting - not cantolbrenn, which  
you might expect - there being a case for 'secondary stress' here).

'Secondary stress' is the card being currently used as an excuse for  
MAGA spelling Penzance as 'Pennsans', which is ridiculous.  There is  
no stress whatsoever on the Pen- of the name.  Locally you can ever  
hear the name as 'zanss'.

Craig


On 24 Est 2010, at 13:45, j.mills at email.com wrote:

> If 'coltrebyn' is the form used in Tregear's time, how should we  
> spell this word in KS?
> Ol an gwella
> Jon
>
> _____________________________________
> Dr. Jon Mills,
> School of European Culture and Languages,
> University of Kent
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: j.mills at email.com
> To: spellyans at kernowek.net
> Sent: Tue, Aug 24, 2010 1:37 pm
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
>
> I presume 'coltrebyn' is a reflex of Old Cornish  
> 'cantulbren' [Vocabularium Cornicum: 756].
> Ol an gwella
> Jon
> _____________________________________
> Dr. Jon Mills,
> School of European Culture and Languages,
> University of Kent
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com>
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 24, 2010 12:21 pm
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
>
> Some words in TH have been adapted to Cornish phonetic type, like  
> spryngya, lyftya. These can surely be used.
> Interestingly <spryngya, speringya, springya> was confined to  
> Tregear until BK was discovered. Now we have
>
> A Christ, re be benegas!
> Attomma fyntan spryngys BK 785-86.
>
> Decevya 'deceive' is used by both TH and SA, but the first  
> attestation is in Pascon agan Arluth: Pehadoryon rag perna
> o desevijs dre satnas 'to redeem sinners who had been deceived by  
> Satan' PA 5c. Rebukya is used frequently by TH but the first  
> attestation again is in PA: ena y an rebukyas 'then they rebuked  
> him' PA 112a and ef a ve veyll rebukis 'he was vilely rebuked' PA  
> 156a.
> I have not done a thorough word count, but it always seems to me  
> that PA has proportionally more borrowed verbs than any other
> text apart from TH and SA; yet in date of composition PA is the  
> oldest MC text.
> And when it comes to adverbs BK takes the biscuit with ha sekretly  
> bew hedre vy ow ro theso a vyth clere 'and secretly as long as you  
> live my gift to you will be clear' BK 638-40.
>
> Again forsakya 'forsake' looks like one of Tregear's words; oddly  
> enough it is used three times in BM, once by Nicholas Boson in JCH  
> and only twice by TH.
>
> The word attendya 'attend, pay attention to' occurs 14 times:
> PA x 1
> BM x 7
> BK x 3
> CW x 1
> and twice in TH. So this word, though obviously a borrowing, is well  
> established long before TH.
>
> For 'disciple' we all learnt dyskybel, plural dyskyblon. I have been  
> criticised for using the plural dyscyplys, as though the word came  
> from TH.
> It does of course, but the first attestations are zyscyplys PA 52a;  
> PA 55c and dysciplys PC 391.
>
> Moreover TH has some excellent native words not found elsewhere in MC:
>
> coltrebyn 'candlestick'; denlath 'murderers'; an hollsens 'all  
> saints'.
>
> We should perhaps not be too quick to condemn TH's vocabulary out of  
> hand.
>
> Nicholas
>
> On 24 Est 2010, at 11:16, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>> I think we have to take great care which we adopt into Cornish, and  
>> why we do so.
>
> =
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From everson at evertype.com  Tue Aug 24 14:48:47 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:48:47 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <8CD11A16C58C019-414-674D@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk><4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com><F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org><8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com><4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com><1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com><6682AE35-E471-4A03-8C08-27B78D138D5A@agantavas.org><7736EC7F-94DC-455A-BF66-0E953899210F@gmail.com>
	<8CD11A0490E631A-414-66EC@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CD11A16C58C019-414-674D@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <54D153E5-5E4B-48D1-9B62-3A8B60124F9F@evertype.com>

On 24 Aug 2010, at 13:45, j.mills at email.com wrote:

> If 'coltrebyn' is the form used in Tregear's time, how should we spell this word in KS?

If it's [?k?l?tr?b?n] then 'coltrebyn' does fine.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Tue Aug 24 16:39:08 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:39:08 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Tregear's Cornish
In-Reply-To: <8CD11A0490E631A-414-66EC@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
References: <439AFCBF@minerva2.ex.ac.uk><4386F730.E1EC7B41@eurobell.co.uk><78A44582-47A5-456E-858D-FA905AA4005C@evertype.com><BAY146-w41ED35E0A305BFC4D913EEDA9D0@phx.gbl><04B03EA3-2F44-45B3-AB3C-58250FD3EB9A@evertype.com><8560F94D-69B8-4CA1-80A3-9FBC3E85A04F@evertype.com><AANLkTik13UU8FQpy3j_fANKSoL-vgiMj3R8JyMuT14VA@mail.gmail.com><4F177F7E-4928-4095-96D6-394FA528193A@spyrys.org><9EF54730-572D-4169-9FEB-558074B3F5FE@evertype.com><78D3C1EC-8E2A-4C2A-BDFA-5C66426B7379@spyrys.org><0854F08A-3F3E-468E-B050-870956620A26@gmail.com><F9841F3A-3EB3-4294-8540-DFC5E5CF4D56@spyrys.org><8CD117D734C8DDB-14B4-5B81@web-mmc-d03.sysops.aol.com><4D15DF66-E1A6-4A69-B78F-A3C750239CF0@gmail.com><1C1A82D0-1CF1-4F2D-8A77-9BB939A81020@evertype.com><6682AE35-E471-4A03-8C08-27B78D138D5A@agantavas.org>
	<7736EC7F-94DC-455A-BF66-0E953899210F@gmail.com>
	<8CD11A0490E631A-414-66EC@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA049DF3-0119-4AF8-97F0-3EAAB4DBB9A8@gmail.com>

It is, of course. That is why I was careful to say that Tregear used  
words not found elsewhere in MC i.e. Middle Cornish.

Nicholas

On 24 Est 2010, at 13:37, j.mills at email.com wrote:

> I presume 'coltrebyn' is a reflex of Old Cornish  
> 'cantulbren' [Vocabularium Cornicum: 756].
> Ol an gwella

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 07:55:04 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:55:04 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
Message-ID: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>


Ever since Nance's time revivalists have been saying Meur ras dhywgh  
for ?thank you.? Variants of this expression are certainly attested:

gorthyans ha gras thy?s a das ?praise and thanks to thee, O father? OM  
1149.
Syr Teuthar, mer gras theso! ?Sir Teuthar, great thanks to you!? BK 1081
a das kere mere rase thewhy agis dyskans da pub preyse ?O dear father,  
thank you for your instruction always? CW 1953-54
mear a ras thewhy eall due ?great thanks to you, o angel of God? CW 1872
Rag nag ez buz lebban duath dem dro d?an hollan kear, maras tha Dieu  
?For it is only now that I have finished concerning the expensive  
salt, thanks be to God? Oliver Pender.

In the Late Cornish texts, however, ?thank you? is often Duw re dallo  
dhywgh why, pronounced D?rdalla dhywgh why:

Durdala dewhy, syr: I do thanke you, syr Borde
Da, Durdala dewhy, master da: Well, God thanke you, good master Borde
Da durdala tha why: Well, I thank you Carew
Dah, durdala tha why: Well, I thank you Pryce.

It is likely, however that the second sentence quoted there from Borde  
and Carew and Pryce all have the same source.

In the texts, however, the ordinary way of saying ?thank you? is  
gromercy. I have collected the following examples:

A das a nef gromercy ?O father of heaven, thank you? OM 405
gromersy arluth a brys rag the roow prest yv da ?thank you, worthy  
lord, for your presents are always good? OM 2313-14
agas enour gromersy a vynnough the wul thy'mo ?for your honour you  
wish to do me thank you? OM 2384-85
serys gromersy yn weth mara pewaf why a veth ?sirs, thanks also you  
will have, if I am spared? OM 2395-96
ha largys ha gromersy ?Oh generosity, and thank you!? OM 2465
Gromersy arloth hep par ?Thank you, lord without equal? OM 2595
grant mercy syre iustis ?thank you, sir magistrate? PC 3133
grant merci syr iustis bynytha syngys of thy's ?thank your, sir  
magistrate, every shall I be grateful to you? RD 95-6
Gramercy zywy warbarth ?Thank you all together? BM 258
Gromercy meryasek wek agis norter yv mar dek maythogh keris gans lues  
?Thank you, Meriasek, your upbringing is so fine, that you are loved  
by many? BM 286-88
Gromercy meryasek wek mar luen oys a corteysy ?Thank you, Meriasek,  
you are so full of courtesy? BM 298-99
Gromercy agen lych da mur gras y wothen nefra thywy agis bolnegeth  
?Thank you, our good liege, we would acknowledge much thanks to you  
for your goodwill? BM 308-10
Tewdar gyntel, gromercy a?th veneson ?Gentle Teudar, thank you for  
your blessing? BK 641-42
Gramersy theso, dremas! ?Thank you, good sir!? BK 824
Teuthar gentel, gramersy! ?Gentle Teudar, thank you!? BK 1093
Gromersy a?n gwelha tas, Arthor rych a ryowta ?Thank you for the  
finest father, Arthur rich in majesty? BK 1154-55
Gromersy, arluth cortys, flowran ol an arlythy ?Thank you, courteous  
lord, flower of all lords? BK 1594-95
Gramersy, arluth glorius, the peb eth os plegadow ?Thank you, O  
glorious lord; to all you are pleasing? BK 1626-27
Gramercy, ow arluth gay ?Thank you, my fine lord? BK 3060
Gramersie, gentyll Howen, ha me this maga lowan a?n tal, mara calla?  
?Thank you, gentle, Howen, and to you I will repay it as willingly, if  
I can? BK 3214-16
myhall sera thewgh gramercy ?By St Michael, sir, thank you? CW 599
I thanke you, Gad marshe Richard Symonds
gra massi ?thank you? Lhuyd.


Given that gromercy ?thank you? is much better attested than any other  
expression with the sense ?thank you?, perhaps we should be using it  
in preference to Meur ras dhis/Meur ras dhywgh why.

Nicholas

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From craig at agantavas.org  Wed Aug 25 08:11:50 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:11:50 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27A1345B-0D69-4EC8-8DBD-933737DE53A4@agantavas.org>

I also say:  Grassa dhis; grassa dhywgh (but unsure where they came  
from).

Craig


On 25 Est 2010, at 07:55, nicholas williams wrote:

>
> Ever since Nance's time revivalists have been saying Meur ras dhywgh  
> for ?thank you.? Variants of this expression are certainly attested:
>
> gorthyans ha gras thy?s a das ?praise and thanks to thee, O father?  
> OM 1149.
> Syr Teuthar, mer gras theso! ?Sir Teuthar, great thanks to you!? BK  
> 1081
> a das kere mere rase thewhy agis dyskans da pub preyse ?O dear  
> father, thank you for your instruction always? CW 1953-54
> mear a ras thewhy eall due ?great thanks to you, o angel of God? CW  
> 1872
> Rag nag ez buz lebban duath dem dro d?an hollan kear, maras tha Dieu  
> ?For it is only now that I have finished concerning the expensive  
> salt, thanks be to God? Oliver Pender.
>
> In the Late Cornish texts, however, ?thank you? is often Duw re  
> dallo dhywgh why, pronounced D?rdalla dhywgh why:
>
> Durdala dewhy, syr: I do thanke you, syr Borde
> Da, Durdala dewhy, master da: Well, God thanke you, good master Borde
> Da durdala tha why: Well, I thank you Carew
> Dah, durdala tha why: Well, I thank you Pryce.
>
> It is likely, however that the second sentence quoted there from  
> Borde and Carew and Pryce all have the same source.
>
> In the texts, however, the ordinary way of saying ?thank you? is  
> gromercy. I have collected the following examples:
>
> A das a nef gromercy ?O father of heaven, thank you? OM 405
> gromersy arluth a brys rag the roow prest yv da ?thank you, worthy  
> lord, for your presents are always good? OM 2313-14
> agas enour gromersy a vynnough the wul thy'mo ?for your honour you  
> wish to do me thank you? OM 2384-85
> serys gromersy yn weth mara pewaf why a veth ?sirs, thanks also you  
> will have, if I am spared? OM 2395-96
> ha largys ha gromersy ?Oh generosity, and thank you!? OM 2465
> Gromersy arloth hep par ?Thank you, lord without equal? OM 2595
> grant mercy syre iustis ?thank you, sir magistrate? PC 3133
> grant merci syr iustis bynytha syngys of thy's ?thank your, sir  
> magistrate, every shall I be grateful to you? RD 95-6
> Gramercy zywy warbarth ?Thank you all together? BM 258
> Gromercy meryasek wek agis norter yv mar dek maythogh keris gans  
> lues ?Thank you, Meriasek, your upbringing is so fine, that you are  
> loved by many? BM 286-88
> Gromercy meryasek wek mar luen oys a corteysy ?Thank you, Meriasek,  
> you are so full of courtesy? BM 298-99
> Gromercy agen lych da mur gras y wothen nefra thywy agis bolnegeth  
> ?Thank you, our good liege, we would acknowledge much thanks to you  
> for your goodwill? BM 308-10
> Tewdar gyntel, gromercy a?th veneson ?Gentle Teudar, thank you for  
> your blessing? BK 641-42
> Gramersy theso, dremas! ?Thank you, good sir!? BK 824
> Teuthar gentel, gramersy! ?Gentle Teudar, thank you!? BK 1093
> Gromersy a?n gwelha tas, Arthor rych a ryowta ?Thank you for the  
> finest father, Arthur rich in majesty? BK 1154-55
> Gromersy, arluth cortys, flowran ol an arlythy ?Thank you, courteous  
> lord, flower of all lords? BK 1594-95
> Gramersy, arluth glorius, the peb eth os plegadow ?Thank you, O  
> glorious lord; to all you are pleasing? BK 1626-27
> Gramercy, ow arluth gay ?Thank you, my fine lord? BK 3060
> Gramersie, gentyll Howen, ha me this maga lowan a?n tal, mara calla?  
> ?Thank you, gentle, Howen, and to you I will repay it as willingly,  
> if I can? BK 3214-16
> myhall sera thewgh gramercy ?By St Michael, sir, thank you? CW 599
> I thanke you, Gad marshe Richard Symonds
> gra massi ?thank you? Lhuyd.
>
>
> Given that gromercy ?thank you? is much better attested than any  
> other expression with the sense ?thank you?, perhaps we should be  
> using it in preference to Meur ras dhis/Meur ras dhywgh why.
>
> Nicholas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From j.mills at email.com  Wed Aug 25 09:12:57 2010
From: j.mills at email.com (j.mills at email.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 04:12:57 -0400
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CD1244760D2C1B-1344-1035@web-mmc-m03.sysops.aol.com>


I suspect that the vast majority will continue to use Meur ras, irrespective of any recomendations that might be made. I think that the difference between these three forms of 'thank you' is one of register. Durdala dewhy was the form commonly used in normal conversation in the 16th century. Gromercy, borrowed from Old Norman French, was the courtly form of the somewhat stylised miracle plays.
Ol an gwella,
Jon

_____________________________________ 
Dr. Jon Mills, 
School of European Culture and Languages, 
University of Kent



-----Original Message-----
From: nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com>
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 7:55 am
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"





Ever since Nance's time revivalists have been saying Meur ras dhywgh for ?thank you.? Variants of this expression are certainly attested:


gorthyans ha gras thy?s a das ?praise and thanks to thee, O father? OM 1149.
Syr Teuthar, mer gras theso! ?Sir Teuthar, great thanks to you!? BK 1081
a das kere mere rase thewhy agis dyskans da pub preyse ?O dear father, thank you for your instruction always? CW 1953-54
mear a ras thewhy eall due ?great thanks to you, o angel of God? CW 1872
Rag nag ez buz lebban duath dem dro d?an hollan kear, maras tha Dieu ?For it is only now that I have finished concerning the expensive salt, thanks be to God? Oliver Pender.


In the Late Cornish texts, however, ?thank you? is often Duw re dallo dhywgh why, pronounced D?rdalla dhywgh why:


Durdala dewhy, syr: I do thanke you, syr Borde
Da, Durdala dewhy, master da: Well, God thanke you, good master Borde
Da durdala tha why: Well, I thank you Carew
Dah, durdala tha why: Well, I thank you Pryce.


It is likely, however that the second sentence quoted there from Borde and Carew and Pryce all have the same source.


In the texts, however, the ordinary way of saying ?thank you? is gromercy. I have collected the following examples:


A das a nef gromercy ?O father of heaven, thank you? OM 405
gromersy arluth a brys rag the roow prest yv da ?thank you, worthy lord, for your presents are always good? OM 2313-14
agas enour gromersy a vynnough the wul thy'mo ?for your honour you wish to do me thank you? OM 2384-85
serys gromersy yn weth mara pewaf why a veth ?sirs, thanks also you will have, if I am spared? OM 2395-96
ha largys ha gromersy ?Oh generosity, and thank you!? OM 2465
Gromersy arloth hep par ?Thank you, lord without equal? OM 2595
grant mercy syre iustis ?thank you, sir magistrate? PC 3133
grant merci syr iustis bynytha syngys of thy's ?thank your, sir magistrate, every shall I be grateful to you? RD 95-6
Gramercy zywy warbarth ?Thank you all together? BM 258
Gromercy meryasek wek agis norter yv mar dek maythogh keris gans lues ?Thank you, Meriasek, your upbringing is so fine, that you are loved by many? BM 286-88 
Gromercy meryasek wek mar luen oys a corteysy ?Thank you, Meriasek, you are so full of courtesy? BM 298-99
Gromercy agen lych da mur gras y wothen nefra thywy agis bolnegeth ?Thank you, our good liege, we would acknowledge much thanks to you for your goodwill? BM 308-10
Tewdar gyntel, gromercy a?th veneson ?Gentle Teudar, thank you for your blessing? BK 641-42
Gramersy theso, dremas! ?Thank you, good sir!? BK 824
Teuthar gentel, gramersy! ?Gentle Teudar, thank you!? BK 1093
Gromersy a?n gwelha tas, Arthor rych a ryowta ?Thank you for the finest father, Arthur rich in majesty? BK 1154-55 
Gromersy, arluth cortys, flowran ol an arlythy ?Thank you, courteous lord, flower of all lords? BK 1594-95
Gramersy, arluth glorius, the peb eth os plegadow ?Thank you, O glorious lord; to all you are pleasing? BK 1626-27
Gramercy, ow arluth gay ?Thank you, my fine lord? BK 3060
Gramersie, gentyll Howen, ha me this maga lowan a?n tal, mara calla? ?Thank you, gentle, Howen, and to you I will repay it as willingly, if I can? BK 3214-16
myhall sera thewgh gramercy ?By St Michael, sir, thank you? CW 599
I thanke you, Gad marshe Richard Symonds
gra massi ?thank you? Lhuyd.




Given that gromercy ?thank you? is much better attested than any other expression with the sense ?thank you?, perhaps we should be using it in preference to Meur ras dhis/Meur ras dhywgh why.


Nicholas


= 

_______________________________________________
pellyans mailing list
pellyans at kernowek.net
ttp://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Wed Aug 25 09:41:51 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:41:51 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <8CD1244760D2C1B-1344-1035@web-mmc-m03.sysops.aol.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
	<8CD1244760D2C1B-1344-1035@web-mmc-m03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <AFEE9CFF-7CBC-4482-AD71-0698DBA1DB73@gmail.com>

Hardly. It's quoted by Lhuyd.

On 25 Est 2010, at 09:12, j.mills at email.com wrote:

> was the courtly form of the somewhat stylised miracle plays.

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From everson at evertype.com  Wed Aug 25 09:59:19 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:59:19 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <8CD1244760D2C1B-1344-1035@web-mmc-m03.sysops.aol.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
	<8CD1244760D2C1B-1344-1035@web-mmc-m03.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <61C05539-DEE9-4C66-B2FB-3058091633EF@evertype.com>

On 25 Aug 2010, at 09:12, j.mills at email.com wrote:

> I think that the difference between these three forms of 'thank you' is one of register. Durdala dewhy was the form commonly used in normal conversation in the 16th century.

True.

> Gromercy, borrowed from Old Norman French, was the courtly form of the somewhat stylised miracle plays.

If you look at the glosses and contexts Nicholas gives for "gr?ss dhis" and "gromercy dhis" you will not see a functional difference between the two. "Meur a r?ss dhewgh why" and "gromercy dhewgh" are both said to angels, for instance. 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From j.mills at email.com  Wed Aug 25 12:21:43 2010
From: j.mills at email.com (j.mills at email.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:21:43 -0400
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <AFEE9CFF-7CBC-4482-AD71-0698DBA1DB73@gmail.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com><8CD1244760D2C1B-1344-1035@web-mmc-m03.sysops.aol.com>
	<AFEE9CFF-7CBC-4482-AD71-0698DBA1DB73@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CD125ED4A781EF-18E4-6450@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>


Lhuyd read the Ordinalia and Jordan's Creation and incorporated much material from these sources, which accounts for his inclusion of "gra massi".
Ol an gwella
Jon

_____________________________________ 
Dr. Jon Mills, 
School of European Culture and Languages, 
University of Kent



-----Original Message-----
From: nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com>
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 9:41 am
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] "Thank you"


Hardly. It's quoted by Lhuyd.


On 25 Est 2010, at 09:12, j.mills at email.com wrote:


was the courtly form of the somewhat stylised miracle plays.


= 

_______________________________________________
pellyans mailing list
pellyans at kernowek.net
ttp://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

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From j.mills at email.com  Wed Aug 25 13:02:12 2010
From: j.mills at email.com (j.mills at email.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:02:12 -0400
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <61C05539-DEE9-4C66-B2FB-3058091633EF@evertype.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com><8CD1244760D2C1B-1344-1035@web-mmc-m03.sysops.aol.com>
	<61C05539-DEE9-4C66-B2FB-3058091633EF@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <8CD12647C45F62F-18E4-679D@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>


Gras is also a borrowing from Old Norman French. The expression meur ras is a calque on Old Norman French grant mersi. The difference in register is most evident between the miracle plays and Boorde's Conversation in a Tavern. The Conversation in a Tavern represents ordinary everyday Cornish of the period, unlike the plays which are highly stylised.
Ol an gwella,
Jon

_____________________________________ 
Dr. Jon Mills, 
School of European Culture and Languages, 
University of Kent



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Wed, Aug 25, 2010 9:59 am
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] "Thank you"


On 25 Aug 2010, at 09:12, j.mills at email.com wrote:
> I think that the difference between these three forms of 'thank you' is one of 
egister. Durdala dewhy was the form commonly used in normal conversation in the 
6th century.
True.
> Gromercy, borrowed from Old Norman French, was the courtly form of the 
omewhat stylised miracle plays.
If you look at the glosses and contexts Nicholas gives for "gr?ss dhis" and 
gromercy dhis" you will not see a functional difference between the two. "Meur 
 r?ss dhewgh why" and "gromercy dhewgh" are both said to angels, for instance. 
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

______________________________________________
pellyans mailing list
pellyans at kernowek.net
ttp://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

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From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Aug 25 17:46:22 2010
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 17:46:22 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5BAE994C-CC35-4417-9441-D56624959F56@yahoo.co.uk>

On 25 Est 2010, at 07:55, nicholas williams wrote:
> Given that gromercy ?thank you? is much better attested than any  
> other expression with the sense ?thank you?, perhaps we should be  
> using it in preference to Meur ras dhis/Meur ras dhywgh why.

Or perhaps we should not! Given that 'mur ras' and 'gromercy' and  
'durdala why' are all frequently attested in the Revived Cornish  
corpus, and have all been in common use amongst Kernewegoryon for more  
than 3 generations, one should instead use whichever one fancies.

And we can add to the list (based on what Nance offers in his  
excellent dictionaries) such confections as 'mur ras a aswonaf dhys',  
'y whon dhys mur ras', or even, 'dhys re bo grassys' and 'dhys y'n  
grassaf'

Isn't Cornish lucky to have such a richness of ways of expressing  
gratitude. I very much hope that Kernewegoryon will refuse to have  
their choice of idiom constrained by someone counting up what's in the  
historical corpus.

The living, revived language is too rich and vibrant to be ruled by  
mere accountants' number crunching, surely.

Eddie Foirbeis Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow byner re bo lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicandi praeter necessitatem

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From ajtrim at msn.com  Wed Aug 25 18:44:40 2010
From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:44:40 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY148-ds7D9A4F9CAD05B1747155ACC840@phx.gbl>

Yes, we should use gromercy but should we spell it ending -rcy or -rsy, and why did Symonds write -rshe? Is this implying the English sh sound or does it imply that there is stress on the final syllable?

Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: nicholas williams 
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 7:55 AM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"




Ever since Nance's time revivalists have been saying Meur ras dhywgh for ?thank you.? Variants of this expression are certainly attested:


gorthyans ha gras thy?s a das ?praise and thanks to thee, O father? OM 1149.
Syr Teuthar, mer gras theso! ?Sir Teuthar, great thanks to you!? BK 1081
a das kere mere rase thewhy agis dyskans da pub preyse ?O dear father, thank you for your instruction always? CW 1953-54
mear a ras thewhy eall due ?great thanks to you, o angel of God? CW 1872
Rag nag ez buz lebban duath dem dro d?an hollan kear, maras tha Dieu ?For it is only now that I have finished concerning the expensive salt, thanks be to God? Oliver Pender.


In the Late Cornish texts, however, ?thank you? is often Duw re dallo dhywgh why, pronounced D?rdalla dhywgh why:


Durdala dewhy, syr: I do thanke you, syr Borde
Da, Durdala dewhy, master da: Well, God thanke you, good master Borde
Da durdala tha why: Well, I thank you Carew
Dah, durdala tha why: Well, I thank you Pryce.


It is likely, however that the second sentence quoted there from Borde and Carew and Pryce all have the same source.


In the texts, however, the ordinary way of saying ?thank you? is gromercy. I have collected the following examples:


A das a nef gromercy ?O father of heaven, thank you? OM 405
gromersy arluth a brys rag the roow prest yv da ?thank you, worthy lord, for your presents are always good? OM 2313-14
agas enour gromersy a vynnough the wul thy'mo ?for your honour you wish to do me thank you? OM 2384-85
serys gromersy yn weth mara pewaf why a veth ?sirs, thanks also you will have, if I am spared? OM 2395-96
ha largys ha gromersy ?Oh generosity, and thank you!? OM 2465
Gromersy arloth hep par ?Thank you, lord without equal? OM 2595
grant mercy syre iustis ?thank you, sir magistrate? PC 3133
grant merci syr iustis bynytha syngys of thy's ?thank your, sir magistrate, every shall I be grateful to you? RD 95-6
Gramercy zywy warbarth ?Thank you all together? BM 258
Gromercy meryasek wek agis norter yv mar dek maythogh keris gans lues ?Thank you, Meriasek, your upbringing is so fine, that you are loved by many? BM 286-88 
Gromercy meryasek wek mar luen oys a corteysy ?Thank you, Meriasek, you are so full of courtesy? BM 298-99
Gromercy agen lych da mur gras y wothen nefra thywy agis bolnegeth ?Thank you, our good liege, we would acknowledge much thanks to you for your goodwill? BM 308-10
Tewdar gyntel, gromercy a?th veneson ?Gentle Teudar, thank you for your blessing? BK 641-42
Gramersy theso, dremas! ?Thank you, good sir!? BK 824
Teuthar gentel, gramersy! ?Gentle Teudar, thank you!? BK 1093
Gromersy a?n gwelha tas, Arthor rych a ryowta ?Thank you for the finest father, Arthur rich in majesty? BK 1154-55 
Gromersy, arluth cortys, flowran ol an arlythy ?Thank you, courteous lord, flower of all lords? BK 1594-95
Gramersy, arluth glorius, the peb eth os plegadow ?Thank you, O glorious lord; to all you are pleasing? BK 1626-27
Gramercy, ow arluth gay ?Thank you, my fine lord? BK 3060
Gramersie, gentyll Howen, ha me this maga lowan a?n tal, mara calla? ?Thank you, gentle, Howen, and to you I will repay it as willingly, if I can? BK 3214-16
myhall sera thewgh gramercy ?By St Michael, sir, thank you? CW 599
I thanke you, Gad marshe Richard Symonds
gra massi ?thank you? Lhuyd.




Given that gromercy ?thank you? is much better attested than any other expression with the sense ?thank you?, perhaps we should be using it in preference to Meur ras dhis/Meur ras dhywgh why.


Nicholas




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From everson at evertype.com  Wed Aug 25 18:57:08 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:57:08 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <BAY148-ds7D9A4F9CAD05B1747155ACC840@phx.gbl>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
	<BAY148-ds7D9A4F9CAD05B1747155ACC840@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5F2FAAEA-8E0C-43C5-A1AA-EC281196B706@evertype.com>

On 25 Aug 2010, at 18:44, A. J. Trim wrote:

> Yes, we should use gromercy but should we spell it ending -rcy or -rsy, and why did Symonds write -rshe? Is this implying the English sh sound or does it imply that there is stress on the final syllable?

"ercy" is [?rsi] and "ersy" is [?rzi].

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From craig at agantavas.org  Wed Aug 25 19:17:52 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:17:52 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <5F2FAAEA-8E0C-43C5-A1AA-EC281196B706@evertype.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com>
	<BAY148-ds7D9A4F9CAD05B1747155ACC840@phx.gbl>
	<5F2FAAEA-8E0C-43C5-A1AA-EC281196B706@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <150CDB72-E8D5-4D74-929D-33422111D881@agantavas.org>

I'm very cautious about preferring a word or phrase simply because it  
outnumbers the others in the (extant) texts.

By extension, we should all be using Kemmyn, because they between 55%  
and 90% of all speakers (according to whose fairy-tale you hear - and  
they're all Grimm!).  God forbid!

Craig


On 25 Est 2010, at 18:57, Michael Everson wrote:

> On 25 Aug 2010, at 18:44, A. J. Trim wrote:
>
>> Yes, we should use gromercy but should we spell it ending -rcy or - 
>> rsy, and why did Symonds write -rshe? Is this implying the English  
>> sh sound or does it imply that there is stress on the final syllable?
>
> "ercy" is [?rsi] and "ersy" is [?rzi].
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com  Fri Aug 27 00:49:19 2010
From: mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com (John Nash)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 00:49:19 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
Message-ID: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>

I suppose this request is really directed mainly at Michael Everson,  
but any information from members of this forum would be appreciated.  
Compared with Welsh and Irish, indigenous calligraphic source  
material for style reference is, to say the least, a bit thin on the  
ground for Cornish - are there as yet any specifically recommended  
fonts for display lettering in Cornish?
John Nash 



From craig at agantavas.org  Fri Aug 27 09:21:38 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:21:38 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CC4F97C3-83AB-44D5-A111-D0632DE3B9FB@agantavas.org>

Not really, John but I keep saying that I intend to devise one, based  
on lettering styles from our 5th - 10th century inscribed stones.  One  
day, I'll finish it!

Craig


On 27 Est 2010, at 00:49, John Nash wrote:

> I suppose this request is really directed mainly at Michael Everson,  
> but any information from members of this forum would be appreciated.  
> Compared with Welsh and Irish, indigenous calligraphic source  
> material for style reference is, to say the least, a bit thin on the  
> ground for Cornish - are there as yet any specifically recommended  
> fonts for display lettering in Cornish?
> John Nash
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From everson at evertype.com  Fri Aug 27 10:56:10 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:56:10 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <9CE2B7A2-A255-4628-85E6-02064F7ED43B@evertype.com>

People setting Cornish, like those setting Irish and Welsh and other European languages, can use any display lettering they want. They can use Celtic faces if they want, or loopy cowboy lasso faces, or German architectural faces, or... 

You get the idea.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From ken at ferintosh.org  Fri Aug 27 10:56:23 2010
From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:56:23 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CB653348F81546D3BA4B693E8AD4F77E@yourcfe1ef5834>

A gowetha wheg,

I have often toyed with the idea of using the calligraphy of the Ordinalia 
for a stylistic Cornish typeface.  I do not really have the skills or 
technologies to do this.  I would very much like to use an Ordinalia 
typeface for this purpose.

Over to you Michael !

- Ken


Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Nash" <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:49 AM
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts


>I suppose this request is really directed mainly at Michael Everson,  but 
>any information from members of this forum would be appreciated.  Compared 
>with Welsh and Irish, indigenous calligraphic source  material for style 
>reference is, to say the least, a bit thin on the  ground for Cornish - are 
>there as yet any specifically recommended  fonts for display lettering in 
>Cornish?
> John Nash
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net 




From craig at agantavas.org  Fri Aug 27 11:42:48 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:42:48 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <CB653348F81546D3BA4B693E8AD4F77E@yourcfe1ef5834>
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
	<CB653348F81546D3BA4B693E8AD4F77E@yourcfe1ef5834>
Message-ID: <6B8D8E45-CEA4-429F-8981-DBD87477DB6C@agantavas.org>

That's a thought.  Ordinalia calligraphy can be made clearer.  It can  
be difficult to read, but it is so very beautiful.

Craig


On 27 Est 2010, at 10:56, Ken MacKinnon wrote:

> A gowetha wheg,
>
> I have often toyed with the idea of using the calligraphy of the  
> Ordinalia for a stylistic Cornish typeface.  I do not really have  
> the skills or technologies to do this.  I would very much like to  
> use an Ordinalia typeface for this purpose.
>
> Over to you Michael !
>
> - Ken
>
>
> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>
> ken at ferintosh.org
> and also at:-
> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>
> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>
> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
> Scotland  UK
>
> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Nash" <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com 
> >
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:49 AM
> Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
>
>
>> I suppose this request is really directed mainly at Michael  
>> Everson,  but any information from members of this forum would be  
>> appreciated.  Compared with Welsh and Irish, indigenous  
>> calligraphic source  material for style reference is, to say the  
>> least, a bit thin on the  ground for Cornish - are there as yet any  
>> specifically recommended  fonts for display lettering in Cornish?
>> John Nash
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From everson at evertype.com  Fri Aug 27 12:21:59 2010
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:21:59 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <CB653348F81546D3BA4B693E8AD4F77E@yourcfe1ef5834>
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
	<CB653348F81546D3BA4B693E8AD4F77E@yourcfe1ef5834>
Message-ID: <A9D0150D-2D2B-4501-8824-CEA913DD473E@evertype.com>

On 27 Aug 2010, at 10:56, Ken MacKinnon wrote:

> I have often toyed with the idea of using the calligraphy of the Ordinalia for a stylistic Cornish typeface.  I do not really have the skills or technologies to do this.  I would very much like to use an Ordinalia typeface for this purpose.
> 
> Over to you Michael !

The more people who buy my books, the easier it is for me to work on other projects like that one. 
http://astore.amazon.co.uk/kernowek-21

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/




From mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com  Fri Aug 27 14:18:53 2010
From: mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com (John Nash)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:18:53 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <9CE2B7A2-A255-4628-85E6-02064F7ED43B@evertype.com>
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
	<9CE2B7A2-A255-4628-85E6-02064F7ED43B@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <312011D6-2DF3-415A-BBE4-61F5951B98A2@btinternet.com>

Thanks Michael, Craig and Ken. I use Cornish in decorating ceramics  
and occasionally in paintings, ie usually only a few words, but where  
the design of the lettering is an integral part of the visual  
message. To date I tend to use well known references from Insular  
manuscripts or the Book of Kells and I wondered if there was a modern  
interpretation or font that could be considered more 'authentically'  
Cornish that could be used as additional reference.  Can you advise  
me though as to where can I get a decent visual ref of the Ordinalia  
manuscripts?
Oll an gwella
John

On 27 Aug 2010, at 10:56, Michael Everson wrote:

> People setting Cornish, like those setting Irish and Welsh and  
> other European languages, can use any display lettering they want.  
> They can use Celtic faces if they want, or loopy cowboy lasso  
> faces, or German architectural faces, or...
>
> You get the idea.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From rcr_young at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Aug 27 14:27:29 2010
From: rcr_young at yahoo.co.uk (Ceri Young)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:27:29 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <229080.20510.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

Font useage is?quite?an interesting topic to raise in a forum developing KS 
because of its useage of diacrits which aren't supported by?a substantial?number 
of fonts, and which would?surely present some?problems to those who'd wish 
to?use KS in?desktop publishing without particular expertise in typesetting.

Obviously, this problem exists in Welsh too -?the Welsh Language Board's website 
has issued PDF advice guides on the graphical presentation of Welsh?and how to 
tackle problems involved in Welsh typography; using fonts which don't support 
the language's peculiar diacrits such as circumflexes over 'y'?or 'w' characters 
etc. - so the guides contain some basic advice on how to kern a circumflex over 
a plain letter form. Other advice in the guides concerns best practice 
guidelines for the graphical layout of?bilingual literature, or how to choose 
fonts which take into account Welsh's higher?frequency of characters with stems 
&?tails ('ascenders' & 'descenders')?than?is evident in English - or kerning 
where letter combinations of 'yw' or 'wy' require cosmetic adaptations to the 
font settings. 


If it's of interest to anybody, (and while I have no idea if the Cornish 
Language Board publishes similar advice to graphic designers)?I've attached two 
of the more recent of such PDF guides?issued by the Welsh Language Board?to this 
post. I think there's definitely?a few points of?in these which might be of 
interest to those who?write Revived Cornish,?and indeed; KS.

Oll an gwella,
Ceri



________________________________
From: John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Fri, 27 August, 2010 0:49:19
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts

I suppose this request is really directed mainly at Michael Everson, but any 
information from members of this forum would be appreciated. Compared with Welsh 
and Irish, indigenous calligraphic source material for style reference is, to 
say the least, a bit thin on the ground for Cornish - are there as yet any 
specifically recommended fonts for display lettering in Cornish?
John Nash
_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net



      
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From stinney at sas.upenn.edu  Fri Aug 27 14:47:22 2010
From: stinney at sas.upenn.edu (stinney at sas.upenn.edu)
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:47:22 -0400
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <312011D6-2DF3-415A-BBE4-61F5951B98A2@btinternet.com>
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
	<9CE2B7A2-A255-4628-85E6-02064F7ED43B@evertype.com>
	<312011D6-2DF3-415A-BBE4-61F5951B98A2@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20100827094722.7786253tgpi3o9nu@webmailfs.sas.upenn.edu>

There is a digital version of the Bodleian ms with copyright
restrictions here:

  http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=bodleian&manuscript=msbodl791

  Steve

Quoting John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>:

> Thanks Michael, Craig and Ken. I use Cornish in decorating ceramics  
> and occasionally in paintings, ie usually only a few words, but  
> where the design of the lettering is an integral part of the visual  
> message. To date I tend to use well known references from Insular  
> manuscripts or the Book of Kells and I wondered if there was a  
> modern interpretation or font that could be considered more  
> 'authentically' Cornish that could be used as additional reference.   
> Can you advise me though as to where can I get a decent visual ref  
> of the Ordinalia manuscripts?
> Oll an gwella
> John
>
> On 27 Aug 2010, at 10:56, Michael Everson wrote:
>
>> People setting Cornish, like those setting Irish and Welsh and  
>> other European languages, can use any display lettering they want.  
>> They can use Celtic faces if they want, or loopy cowboy lasso  
>> faces, or German architectural faces, or...
>>
>> You get the idea.
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>






From ken at ferintosh.org  Sat Aug 28 10:46:21 2010
From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:46:21 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
	<9CE2B7A2-A255-4628-85E6-02064F7ED43B@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <33BE0AFD49CB4109B9CBA40E3D9BBC24@yourcfe1ef5834>

Yes indeed - ...or a regularised version of Ordinalia script for language 
dislplay purposes.

- Ken


Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Everson" <everson at evertype.com>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts


> People setting Cornish, like those setting Irish and Welsh and other 
> European languages, can use any display lettering they want. They can use 
> Celtic faces if they want, or loopy cowboy lasso faces, or German 
> architectural faces, or...
>
> You get the idea.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net 




From ken at ferintosh.org  Sat Aug 28 10:57:23 2010
From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 10:57:23 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com><CB653348F81546D3BA4B693E8AD4F77E@yourcfe1ef5834>
	<A9D0150D-2D2B-4501-8824-CEA913DD473E@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <F33B1BD66B7844359532C8A3E8CB3291@yourcfe1ef5834>

Excellent, Michael.

Evertype is producing a distinguished book list which will gretly advance 
the cause of KS

gans bub bolunjeth da - Ken


Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Everson" <everson at evertype.com>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts


> On 27 Aug 2010, at 10:56, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>
>> I have often toyed with the idea of using the calligraphy of the 
>> Ordinalia for a stylistic Cornish typeface.  I do not really have the 
>> skills or technologies to do this.  I would very much like to use an 
>> Ordinalia typeface for this purpose.
>>
>> Over to you Michael !
>
> The more people who buy my books, the easier it is for me to work on other 
> projects like that one.
> http://astore.amazon.co.uk/kernowek-21
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net 




From ken at ferintosh.org  Sat Aug 28 11:05:54 2010
From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:05:54 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com><9CE2B7A2-A255-4628-85E6-02064F7ED43B@evertype.com>
	<312011D6-2DF3-415A-BBE4-61F5951B98A2@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <2355210DDEA44CB5810F04B80072353E@yourcfe1ef5834>

John, I would very much encourage you in this initiative.

Various publications of the ordinalia have incporporated this script in the 
book cover.  Harry Woodhouse's The Cornish Passion Poem in Facsimile 2002 
( Pub Gorseth Kernow -  but order form author, Trenoweth, Porthpean, St 
Austell PL26 6 AU ?16.99 + p & p ?1.50)  It  has the whole thing in original 
, clear version and translation.

gans pub bolunjeth da - Ken


Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Nash" <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts


> Thanks Michael, Craig and Ken. I use Cornish in decorating ceramics  and 
> occasionally in paintings, ie usually only a few words, but where  the 
> design of the lettering is an integral part of the visual  message. To 
> date I tend to use well known references from Insular  manuscripts or the 
> Book of Kells and I wondered if there was a modern  interpretation or font 
> that could be considered more 'authentically'  Cornish that could be used 
> as additional reference.  Can you advise  me though as to where can I get 
> a decent visual ref of the Ordinalia  manuscripts?
> Oll an gwella
> John
>
> On 27 Aug 2010, at 10:56, Michael Everson wrote:
>
>> People setting Cornish, like those setting Irish and Welsh and  other 
>> European languages, can use any display lettering they want.  They can 
>> use Celtic faces if they want, or loopy cowboy lasso  faces, or German 
>> architectural faces, or...
>>
>> You get the idea.
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net 




From ken at ferintosh.org  Sat Aug 28 11:19:36 2010
From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:19:36 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
	<229080.20510.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4355B9CC4C144BDB9389A9585E77931F@yourcfe1ef5834>

Ceri et al,

many thanks for this very useful guidance.

It always jars on me when 'Celtic' i.e. early Gaelic scripts are used for Cornish.  It is ananchronistic and ectopic

I very much hope that a suitable indigenous traditional script for Cornish can be developed for decorative and language display purposes.

- Ken


Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ceri Young 
  To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
  Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts


  Font useage is quite an interesting topic to raise in a forum developing KS because of its useage of diacrits which aren't supported by a substantial number of fonts, and which would surely present some problems to those who'd wish to use KS in desktop publishing without particular expertise in typesetting.

  Obviously, this problem exists in Welsh too - the Welsh Language Board's website has issued PDF advice guides on the graphical presentation of Welsh and how to tackle problems involved in Welsh typography; using fonts which don't support the language's peculiar diacrits such as circumflexes over 'y' or 'w' characters etc. - so the guides contain some basic advice on how to kern a circumflex over a plain letter form. Other advice in the guides concerns best practice guidelines for the graphical layout of bilingual literature, or how to choose fonts which take into account Welsh's higher frequency of characters with stems & tails ('ascenders' & 'descenders') than is evident in English - or kerning where letter combinations of 'yw' or 'wy' require cosmetic adaptations to the font settings. 

  If it's of interest to anybody, (and while I have no idea if the Cornish Language Board publishes similar advice to graphic designers) I've attached two of the more recent of such PDF guides issued by the Welsh Language Board to this post. I think there's definitely a few points of in these which might be of interest to those who write Revived Cornish, and indeed; KS.

  Oll an gwella,
  Ceri



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
  To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
  Sent: Fri, 27 August, 2010 0:49:19
  Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts

  I suppose this request is really directed mainly at Michael Everson, but any information from members of this forum would be appreciated. Compared with Welsh and Irish, indigenous calligraphic source material for style reference is, to say the least, a bit thin on the ground for Cornish - are there as yet any specifically recommended fonts for display lettering in Cornish?
  John Nash
  _______________________________________________
  Spellyans mailing list
  Spellyans at kernowek.net
  http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Spellyans mailing list
  Spellyans at kernowek.net
  http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com  Sat Aug 28 12:02:35 2010
From: mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com (John Nash)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:02:35 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <229080.20510.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
	<229080.20510.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6C7E379F-A1E0-4DC0-996A-CD1F24D22583@btinternet.com>

Thanks Ceri
My personal interest was more in the use of one-off hand drawn  
lettering and calligraphy than desk top publishing, but typographic  
advice to designers producing Cornish or bi-lingual printed matter is  
equally interesting, and perhaps a lot more important. I looked at  
the guides you attached re advice on Welsh - I'm afraid I don't know  
if anything similar has been done or is in hand as far as Cornish  
goes, but it is a natural development from agreeing standards in the  
language itself to agreeing standards, or at least advice, as to how  
the language should be treated typographically and how certain  
diacritics can be achieved.
Oll an gwella
John

On 27 Aug 2010, at 14:27, Ceri Young wrote:

> Font useage is quite an interesting topic to raise in a forum  
> developing KS because of its useage of diacrits which aren't  
> supported by a substantial number of fonts, and which would surely  
> present some problems to those who'd wish to use KS in desktop  
> publishing without particular expertise in typesetting.
> Obviously, this problem exists in Welsh too - the Welsh Language  
> Board's website has issued PDF advice guides on the graphical  
> presentation of Welsh and how to tackle problems involved in Welsh  
> typography; using fonts which don't support the language's peculiar  
> diacrits such as circumflexes over 'y' or 'w' characters etc. - so  
> the guides contain some basic advice on how to kern a circumflex  
> over a plain letter form. Other advice in the guides concerns best  
> practice guidelines for the graphical layout of bilingual  
> literature, or how to choose fonts which take into account Welsh's  
> higher frequency of characters with stems & tails ('ascenders' &  
> 'descenders') than is evident in English - or kerning where letter  
> combinations of 'yw' or 'wy' require cosmetic adaptations to the  
> font settings.
>
> If it's of interest to anybody, (and while I have no idea if the  
> Cornish Language Board publishes similar advice to graphic  
> designers) I've attached two of the more recent of such PDF guides  
> issued by the Welsh Language Board to this post. I think there's  
> definitely a few points of in these which might be of interest to  
> those who write Revived Cornish, and indeed; KS.
>
> Oll an gwella,
> Ceri
>
>
> From: John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Fri, 27 August, 2010 0:49:19
> Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
>
> I suppose this request is really directed mainly at Michael  
> Everson, but any information from members of this forum would be  
> appreciated. Compared with Welsh and Irish, indigenous calligraphic  
> source material for style reference is, to say the least, a bit  
> thin on the ground for Cornish - are there as yet any specifically  
> recommended fonts for display lettering in Cornish?
> John Nash
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
> <WLB - Advice for Graphic Designers.pdf><CanllawiauDylunio(2009).pdf>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

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From mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com  Sat Aug 28 13:19:01 2010
From: mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com (John Nash)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:19:01 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <4355B9CC4C144BDB9389A9585E77931F@yourcfe1ef5834>
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com>
	<229080.20510.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
	<4355B9CC4C144BDB9389A9585E77931F@yourcfe1ef5834>
Message-ID: <CECDBF40-D394-404C-9DF8-95BC76A978CD@btinternet.com>

Thanks Ken - your point about using celtic scripts is really what  
prompted my original question. I do use lettering based upon these  
within some of my creative work, prompted by my interest in the early  
British, and especially the early Cornish, church. Although these are  
basically just decorative pieces or paintings which don't make any  
claims to historical 'purity', I would prefer to avoid obvious  
gaffes. Using 'celtic'  lettering for Latin texts seemed to me in  
historical context, as there are a host of manuscripts  to use as  
exemplars, but there doesn't seem to be anything similar from this  
period featuring Cornish. Whether this is because none ever existed,  
or whether none survived the depredations of the Reformation, I don't  
know.
The script used for the Ordinalia is certainly very beautiful - I've  
only had time for a quick browse, but apart from its provenance as to  
it place of origin, I'm not sure that it has anything stylistically  
that defines it as uniquely Cornish. I may well be talking out of the  
wrong orifice here, as I'm no expert on 15th century scripts, but at  
first glance it seems to fall stylistically into the mainstream of  
English cursive book hands from the period. No doubt there are others  
that have studied it in depth. There are already typefaces inspired  
by similar book hands of this period, but I agree, it would be good  
to see one specifically derived from the Ordinalia.
I also found Ceri's contribution re typographic advice on the use of  
Cornish in a modern context very useful.
Sorry if starting this thread is perhaps a bit off message for this  
Forum!
Oll an gwella
John

On 28 Aug 2010, at 11:19, Ken MacKinnon wrote:

> Ceri et al,
>
> many thanks for this very useful guidance.
>
> It always jars on me when 'Celtic' i.e. early Gaelic scripts are  
> used for Cornish.  It is ananchronistic and ectopic
>
> I very much hope that a suitable indigenous traditional script for  
> Cornish can be developed for decorative and language display purposes.
>
> - Ken
>
>
> Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-
>
> ken at ferintosh.org
> and also at:-
> ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com
>
> My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.
>
> (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
> Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
> The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
> Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
> Scotland  UK
>
> Tel: 01349 - 863460
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ceri Young
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
>
> Font useage is quite an interesting topic to raise in a forum  
> developing KS because of its useage of diacrits which aren't  
> supported by a substantial number of fonts, and which would surely  
> present some problems to those who'd wish to use KS in desktop  
> publishing without particular expertise in typesetting.
> Obviously, this problem exists in Welsh too - the Welsh Language  
> Board's website has issued PDF advice guides on the graphical  
> presentation of Welsh and how to tackle problems involved in Welsh  
> typography; using fonts which don't support the language's peculiar  
> diacrits such as circumflexes over 'y' or 'w' characters etc. - so  
> the guides contain some basic advice on how to kern a circumflex  
> over a plain letter form. Other advice in the guides concerns best  
> practice guidelines for the graphical layout of bilingual  
> literature, or how to choose fonts which take into account Welsh's  
> higher frequency of characters with stems & tails ('ascenders' &  
> 'descenders') than is evident in English - or kerning where letter  
> combinations of 'yw' or 'wy' require cosmetic adaptations to the  
> font settings.
>
> If it's of interest to anybody, (and while I have no idea if the  
> Cornish Language Board publishes similar advice to graphic  
> designers) I've attached two of the more recent of such PDF guides  
> issued by the Welsh Language Board to this post. I think there's  
> definitely a few points of in these which might be of interest to  
> those who write Revived Cornish, and indeed; KS.
>
> Oll an gwella,
> Ceri
>
>
> From: John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Sent: Fri, 27 August, 2010 0:49:19
> Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
>
> I suppose this request is really directed mainly at Michael  
> Everson, but any information from members of this forum would be  
> appreciated. Compared with Welsh and Irish, indigenous calligraphic  
> source material for style reference is, to say the least, a bit  
> thin on the ground for Cornish - are there as yet any specifically  
> recommended fonts for display lettering in Cornish?
> John Nash
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

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From ken at ferintosh.org  Sat Aug 28 16:57:34 2010
From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:57:34 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
References: <BC7E2CF9-BD4A-44A8-93F8-E37BC3818323@btinternet.com><229080.20510.qm@web24201.mail.ird.yahoo.com><4355B9CC4C144BDB9389A9585E77931F@yourcfe1ef5834>
	<CECDBF40-D394-404C-9DF8-95BC76A978CD@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <85BA54114E29453CA07FC2B8159B1210@yourcfe1ef5834>

Dear John, and colleagues,

Again apologies in  that this is somewhat peripheral; to spelling issues.

I share your interest in early British / "Celtic" Christianity.   As I said in an earlier post to Ceri I find the use of early Gaelic scripts for much later material in other Celtic languages inauthentic ( anachronistic and ectopic).

I would assume that the 'Ordinalia' script is typical of its period.  I would imagine it is closely similar to other 'hands' in Britain and Europe.   It would be good to have an expert view as to whether there are distinctive features.  But since modern Cornishes ( with the exception of Late / Modern) are based on texts from this period ( + / - ) it would seem that this might be a suitable basis for the devlopment of a distinctive script for revived Cornishes used for stylistc purposes, decorative uses, language display etc.  

I certainly do hope that this correspondence may be able to stimulate such a development.

Sorry for wandering off-topic with this.

Gans gorhemmynadow an gwella - Ken


Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Nash 
  To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
  Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts


  Thanks Ken - your point about using celtic scripts is really what prompted my original question. I do use lettering based upon these within some of my creative work, prompted by my interest in the early British, and especially the early Cornish, church. Although these are basically just decorative pieces or paintings which don't make any claims to historical 'purity', I would prefer to avoid obvious gaffes. Using 'celtic'  lettering for Latin texts seemed to me in historical context, as there are a host of manuscripts  to use as exemplars, but there doesn't seem to be anything similar from this period featuring Cornish. Whether this is because none ever existed, or whether none survived the depredations of the Reformation, I don't know. 
  The script used for the Ordinalia is certainly very beautiful - I've only had time for a quick browse, but apart from its provenance as to it place of origin, I'm not sure that it has anything stylistically that defines it as uniquely Cornish. I may well be talking out of the wrong orifice here, as I'm no expert on 15th century scripts, but at first glance it seems to fall stylistically into the mainstream of English cursive book hands from the period. No doubt there are others that have studied it in depth. There are already typefaces inspired by similar book hands of this period, but I agree, it would be good to see one specifically derived from the Ordinalia.
  I also found Ceri's contribution re typographic advice on the use of Cornish in a modern context very useful.
  Sorry if starting this thread is perhaps a bit off message for this Forum!
  Oll an gwella
  John
     

  On 28 Aug 2010, at 11:19, Ken MacKinnon wrote:


    Ceri et al,

    many thanks for this very useful guidance.

    It always jars on me when 'Celtic' i.e. early Gaelic scripts are used for Cornish.  It is ananchronistic and ectopic

    I very much hope that a suitable indigenous traditional script for Cornish can be developed for decorative and language display purposes.

    - Ken


    Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

    ken at ferintosh.org
    and also at:-
    ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

    My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

    (Prof) Ken MacKinnon
    Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
    The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
    Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
    Scotland  UK

    Tel: 01349 - 863460


      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Ceri Young 
      To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
      Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 2:27 PM
      Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts


      Font useage is quite an interesting topic to raise in a forum developing KS because of its useage of diacrits which aren't supported by a substantial number of fonts, and which would surely present some problems to those who'd wish to use KS in desktop publishing without particular expertise in typesetting.

      Obviously, this problem exists in Welsh too - the Welsh Language Board's website has issued PDF advice guides on the graphical presentation of Welsh and how to tackle problems involved in Welsh typography; using fonts which don't support the language's peculiar diacrits such as circumflexes over 'y' or 'w' characters etc. - so the guides contain some basic advice on how to kern a circumflex over a plain letter form. Other advice in the guides concerns best practice guidelines for the graphical layout of bilingual literature, or how to choose fonts which take into account Welsh's higher frequency of characters with stems & tails ('ascenders' & 'descenders') than is evident in English - or kerning where letter combinations of 'yw' or 'wy' require cosmetic adaptations to the font settings. 

      If it's of interest to anybody, (and while I have no idea if the Cornish Language Board publishes similar advice to graphic designers) I've attached two of the more recent of such PDF guides issued by the Welsh Language Board to this post. I think there's definitely a few points of in these which might be of interest to those who write Revived Cornish, and indeed; KS.

      Oll an gwella,
      Ceri



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
      From: John Nash <mim.oldwellstudio at btinternet.com>
      To: Standard Cornish discussion list <spellyans at kernowek.net>
      Sent: Fri, 27 August, 2010 0:49:19
      Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts

      I suppose this request is really directed mainly at Michael Everson, but any information from members of this forum would be appreciated. Compared with Welsh and Irish, indigenous calligraphic source material for style reference is, to say the least, a bit thin on the ground for Cornish - are there as yet any specifically recommended fonts for display lettering in Cornish?
      John Nash
      _______________________________________________
      Spellyans mailing list
      Spellyans at kernowek.net
      http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net






--------------------------------------------------------------------------



      _______________________________________________
      Spellyans mailing list
      Spellyans at kernowek.net
      http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

    _______________________________________________
    Spellyans mailing list
    Spellyans at kernowek.net
    http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Spellyans mailing list
  Spellyans at kernowek.net
  http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From ajtrim at msn.com  Sun Aug 29 09:21:49 2010
From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:21:49 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
Message-ID: <BAY148-ds163DA4A1E593BD285B874CCC880@phx.gbl>

Personally, I believe that Cornish should be written in a good clear modern typeface, such as Charis SIL or Candara. These will facilitate legibility and comprehension, and so communication - for which any natural language is really intended.

Of course, language should not hinder artistic expression. The nearest that I could find to the typeface of the Ordinalia is Xirwena.

I see two problems with this (beyond the fact that it obfuscates the language): Firstly, it may not be free for commercial purposes. Secondly, the curly tail on the lower-case y soon annoys. Someone may wish to contact the "owner" to see if they can reduce the tail on the y.

Please see the attachment. Apologies to Nicholas. I have re-spelt his fine translation. Note that this is written in my own experimental orthography, and not in KS. The purpose of appending it here is just for fun to show the Xirwena font. It's not perfect but it may be the best traditional typeface that we have till someone develops something specifically for Cornish.

The background is "Parchment" and the brown "ink" is subtly shaded to show that the "ink" is running low from the "nib" towards the ends of the lines!


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim  
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From ajtrim at msn.com  Sun Aug 29 09:21:49 2010
From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:21:49 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
Message-ID: <BAY148-DS400E15F3DE48F9829092CCC880@phx.gbl>

Personally, I believe that Cornish should be written in a good clear modern typeface, such as Charis SIL or Candara. These will facilitate legibility and comprehension, and so communication - for which any natural language is really intended.

Of course, language should not hinder artistic expression. The nearest that I could find to the typeface of the Ordinalia is Xirwena.

I see two problems with this (beyond the fact that it obfuscates the language): Firstly, it may not be free for commercial purposes. Secondly, the curly tail on the lower-case y soon annoys. Someone may wish to contact the "owner" to see if they can reduce the tail on the y.

Please see the attachment. Apologies to Nicholas. I have re-spelt his fine translation. Note that this is written in my own experimental orthography, and not in KS. The purpose of appending it here is just for fun to show the Xirwena font. It's not perfect but it may be the best traditional typeface that we have till someone develops something specifically for Cornish.

The background is "Parchment" and the brown "ink" is subtly shaded to show that the "ink" is running low from the "nib" towards the ends of the lines!


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim  
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From craig at agantavas.org  Sun Aug 29 09:31:19 2010
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:31:19 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <BAY148-ds163DA4A1E593BD285B874CCC880@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY148-ds163DA4A1E593BD285B874CCC880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E71230FE-CB35-4BB1-9EA9-12BC8015DF5B@agantavas.org>

That's nice work, Andrew.

Craig


On 29 Est 2010, at 09:21, A. J. Trim wrote:

> <L?k 2 just for fun.pdf>

--
Craig Weatherhill




From ajtrim at msn.com  Sun Aug 29 12:52:51 2010
From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:52:51 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Sorry
Message-ID: <BAY148-ds20D6AABB2BFABD544D5C82CC880@phx.gbl>

I'm sorry but my last posting was sent twice. This was due to a computer problem. The second posting was in error.
If you received both postings, please note that they are the same - so please don't try to play "spot the difference"!

Regards,

Andrew J. Trim
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Mon Aug 30 09:36:48 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:36:48 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] "Thank you"
In-Reply-To: <8CD125ED4A781EF-18E4-6450@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <D7895851-3DEE-4DFC-A674-B218E6B0B3CC@gmail.com><8CD1244760D2C1B-1344-1035@web-mmc-m03.sysops.aol.com>
	<AFEE9CFF-7CBC-4482-AD71-0698DBA1DB73@gmail.com>
	<8CD125ED4A781EF-18E4-6450@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <5CEBBC12-0D73-4AF0-B4E9-8695650EF1A7@gmail.com>

I doubt whether Lhuyd's form can be explained away so easily. In the  
previous generation
Richard Symonds heard Gad marshe in Cornwall during the Civil War.
This was not a written form for Symonds.

Nicholas

On 25 Est 2010, at 12:21, j.mills at email.com wrote:

> Lhuyd read the Ordinalia and Jordan's Creation and incorporated much  
> material from these sources, which accounts for his inclusion of  
> "gra massi".
> Ol an gwella
> Jon

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From ken at ferintosh.org  Mon Aug 30 10:57:29 2010
From: ken at ferintosh.org (Ken MacKinnon)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:57:29 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
References: <BAY148-ds163DA4A1E593BD285B874CCC880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E1CB1F4D52A34958B767D6672D199A9F@yourcfe1ef5834>

Andrew and colleagues,

My earlier points on this may have been mistaken.  I have not been suggesting use of an 'Ordinalia' script for everyday Cornish use.   The point has been only for 'decorative' purposes, stylistic and language display uses, and the like - not for everyday usage.

- Ken


Ken MacKinnon is now on Broadband  with new e-mail addresses:-

ken at ferintosh.org
and also at:-
ken.ferintosh at googlemail.com

My former e-mail addresses are no longer able to be used.

(Prof) Ken MacKinnon
Ivy Cottage, Ferintosh,
The Black Isle, by Dingwall,
Ross-shire  IV 7 8HX
Scotland  UK

Tel: 01349 - 863460


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: A. J. Trim 
  To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
  Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 9:21 AM
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts


  Personally, I believe that Cornish should be written in a good clear modern typeface, such as Charis SIL or Candara. These will facilitate legibility and comprehension, and so communication - for which any natural language is really intended.

  Of course, language should not hinder artistic expression. The nearest that I could find to the typeface of the Ordinalia is Xirwena.

  I see two problems with this (beyond the fact that it obfuscates the language): Firstly, it may not be free for commercial purposes. Secondly, the curly tail on the lower-case y soon annoys. Someone may wish to contact the "owner" to see if they can reduce the tail on the y.

  Please see the attachment. Apologies to Nicholas. I have re-spelt his fine translation. Note that this is written in my own experimental orthography, and not in KS. The purpose of appending it here is just for fun to show the Xirwena font. It's not perfect but it may be the best traditional typeface that we have till someone develops something specifically for Cornish.

  The background is "Parchment" and the brown "ink" is subtly shaded to show that the "ink" is running low from the "nib" towards the ends of the lines!


  Regards,

  Andrew J. Trim  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Spellyans mailing list
  Spellyans at kernowek.net
  http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Aug 30 12:11:50 2010
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:11:50 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <E1CB1F4D52A34958B767D6672D199A9F@yourcfe1ef5834>
References: <BAY148-ds163DA4A1E593BD285B874CCC880@phx.gbl>
	<E1CB1F4D52A34958B767D6672D199A9F@yourcfe1ef5834>
Message-ID: <8E9D3F3A-ED35-4E80-8FCD-9BDFAE0B9579@yahoo.co.uk>

Ken whek,

Your point is a good one. For regular printed text, Cornish should use  
the same wide range of excellent fonts that English and other European  
languages enjoy?everything from the (overused) likes of Helvetica and  
Times New Roman to less well-known beauties.

But for display purposes, titling, logos and such, absolutely anything  
may suit the work in hand. I adore the look of a display page of  
Cornish in blackletter (although I wouldn't want to read a whole book  
in it!).

Having made that assertion, I couldn't resist having a go with one of  
my favourite blackletter fonts, and have taken the liberty of  
appending the results below. I've used the version 'An Pader' in Andy  
Phillips' 2004 'Lyver Pejadow', and I make no apologies for it being  
in the excellent UCR orthography. Perhaps someone might care to repeat  
the experiment in KS, using one of Michael's lovely Celtic fonts (at  
the risk of being accused of ectopicity or worse!)

Sorry this is a little off-topic, but we need a bit of fun now and  
then?and it IS a jolly good prayer!

Eddie Climo


On 30 Est 2010, at 10:57, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
> Andrew and colleagues,
>  My earlier points on this may have been mistaken.  I have not been  
> suggesting use of an 'Ordinalia' script for everyday Cornish use.    
> The point has been only for 'decorative' purposes, stylistic and  
> language display uses, and the like - not for everyday usage.

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From ajtrim at msn.com  Mon Aug 30 14:01:44 2010
From: ajtrim at msn.com (A. J. Trim)
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 14:01:44 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts & Road Signs
In-Reply-To: <8E9D3F3A-ED35-4E80-8FCD-9BDFAE0B9579@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <BAY148-ds163DA4A1E593BD285B874CCC880@phx.gbl><E1CB1F4D52A34958B767D6672D199A9F@yourcfe1ef5834>
	<8E9D3F3A-ED35-4E80-8FCD-9BDFAE0B9579@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <BAY148-ds1C17FBF35531A6318CD9CCC890@phx.gbl>

That's a nice typeface, Eddie. What is it? Is it free?
I like the orthography too.

It may be distinctive enough and sufficiently legible for place name signs.

It would be better than using a different colour (like the green lettering 
in Ireland), and I think it would be better than a Gaelic typeface for that 
purpose. If we are to have bilingual road signs, there will need to be an 
instantly-obvious way to recognise the Cornish version.

By the way, do we want bilingual road signs? I assume that they would be in 
SWF (Main)? I don't think that would be a good idea.
I know that road signs have not been mentioned here recently but if it 
happens we ought to be interested in the way that they are spelt and 
otherwise presented.


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Eddie Climo" <eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:11 PM
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts

> Ken whek,
>
> Your point is a good one. For regular printed text, Cornish should use
> the same wide range of excellent fonts that English and other European
> languages enjoy?everything from the (overused) likes of Helvetica and
> Times New Roman to less well-known beauties.
>
> But for display purposes, titling, logos and such, absolutely anything
> may suit the work in hand. I adore the look of a display page of
> Cornish in blackletter (although I wouldn't want to read a whole book
> in it!).
>
> Having made that assertion, I couldn't resist having a go with one of
> my favourite blackletter fonts, and have taken the liberty of
> appending the results below. I've used the version 'An Pader' in Andy
> Phillips' 2004 'Lyver Pejadow', and I make no apologies for it being
> in the excellent UCR orthography. Perhaps someone might care to repeat
> the experiment in KS, using one of Michael's lovely Celtic fonts (at
> the risk of being accused of ectopicity or worse!)
>
> Sorry this is a little off-topic, but we need a bit of fun now and
> then?and it IS a jolly good prayer!
>
> Eddie Climo
>
>
> On 30 Est 2010, at 10:57, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
>> Andrew and colleagues,
>>  My earlier points on this may have been mistaken.  I have not been
>> suggesting use of an 'Ordinalia' script for everyday Cornish use.
>> The point has been only for 'decorative' purposes, stylistic and
>> language display uses, and the like - not for everyday usage.
>
>



>
>



> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> 



From njawilliams at gmail.com  Tue Aug 31 11:48:53 2010
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:48:53 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
In-Reply-To: <BAY148-DS400E15F3DE48F9829092CCC880@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY148-DS400E15F3DE48F9829092CCC880@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6EC3705F-1299-4945-9268-26EA5C3CAA77@gmail.com>

My translation is there to be used. Anyone can do as he or she wishes  
with it.
My only quibble with your orthography is this: you use what is  
essentially an Middle Cornish spelling,
but you write the "participle" particle <o' >.
The Middle Cornish spelling is always <ow>, <ou> or <ov>, and <ow> is  
by far the most frequent. <O> is Late Cornish and is not as common as  
<a> for this morpheme.

Nicholas


On 29 Est 2010, at 09:21, A. J. Trim wrote:

> Apologies to Nicholas. I have re-spelt his fine translation

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From butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com  Tue Aug 31 22:39:07 2010
From: butlerdunnit at ntlworld.com (ewan wilson)
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:39:07 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts
References: <BAY148-ds163DA4A1E593BD285B874CCC880@phx.gbl><E1CB1F4D52A34958B767D6672D199A9F@yourcfe1ef5834>
	<8E9D3F3A-ED35-4E80-8FCD-9BDFAE0B9579@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <13C818C7EE3348948909D970A1A500D2@863ab83586db4db>

My own favourite 'everyday' font is Georgia which I think retains a slightly 
'traditional' appearance that appeals to my admittedly naive and non-expert 
eye and I think looks good 'clothing' Cornish!.
 The use of diacritics, etc takes a bit of getting used to. I still like a 
'purer' alphabetical orthography. I also find old Morton Nance's use of 
hyphens with verbal particles, etc very helpful and mourn their desuetude.

Ewan.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eddie Climo" <eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk>
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Cornish fonts


Ken whek,

Your point is a good one. For regular printed text, Cornish should use
the same wide range of excellent fonts that English and other European
languages enjoy?everything from the (overused) likes of Helvetica and
Times New Roman to less well-known beauties.

But for display purposes, titling, logos and such, absolutely anything
may suit the work in hand. I adore the look of a display page of
Cornish in blackletter (although I wouldn't want to read a whole book
in it!).

Having made that assertion, I couldn't resist having a go with one of
my favourite blackletter fonts, and have taken the liberty of
appending the results below. I've used the version 'An Pader' in Andy
Phillips' 2004 'Lyver Pejadow', and I make no apologies for it being
in the excellent UCR orthography. Perhaps someone might care to repeat
the experiment in KS, using one of Michael's lovely Celtic fonts (at
the risk of being accused of ectopicity or worse!)

Sorry this is a little off-topic, but we need a bit of fun now and
then?and it IS a jolly good prayer!

Eddie Climo


On 30 Est 2010, at 10:57, Ken MacKinnon wrote:
> Andrew and colleagues,
>  My earlier points on this may have been mistaken.  I have not been
> suggesting use of an 'Ordinalia' script for everyday Cornish use.
> The point has been only for 'decorative' purposes, stylistic and
> language display uses, and the like - not for everyday usage.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
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> 




