From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan  1 10:16:48 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 10:16:48 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Chy, pl. treven
In-Reply-To: <9C763904-B3C1-4B9D-A0A0-3C504FB2F2D8@gmail.com>
References: <C7893187-A3CF-42E6-937E-8A3CB3306718@evertype.com>
	<BDC931A8-D237-4962-B7F9-6141E38B2785@gmail.com>
	<75FA7F22-2F6B-4664-A833-462BC100E4F1@yahoo.co.uk>
	<9C763904-B3C1-4B9D-A0A0-3C504FB2F2D8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C3A0DFA5-F17A-4EC4-8D9C-027D6590B6D5@yahoo.co.uk>

Interestingly, we find the following entry in a well-known UCR  
dictionary:
> house. chy, -ow & treven [NOTE: treven is the preferred pl.]

Kennedy's RLC Mamgerlevren gives:
> house. choy, pl. treven
.... with which Gendall agrees in his A Practical Cornish Dictionary.

As we've already seen quoted, both Nance and George list treven as a  
plural of chy.

I suggest that, since the dictionaries for every version of Revived  
Cornish are unanimous, it's far too late to try and change this word  
to any possible prior, historical sense it might once have had.

Eddie
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan  1 15:39:06 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 15:39:06 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
Message-ID: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>

In KS originally the preferred form of the verbal noun of ?to do? was  
<gwyl>. Then we decided that long /i:/ in monosyllables should be  
written <i>, e.g. in gwin, gwir, pris, etc.
That would have meant writing <gwil> ?to do?, a spelling which is not  
actually attested. I decided in my own writing to revert to the  
Nancean form <gul>.

Although *gwil is not attested, forms close to it are:

pan vonsy o gwiell an ober warbarth SA 61
e ma o gweill an keth sentence ma playn SA 61a
pan vo an geir devethis rag gwiell an reverent Sacrament SA 62
rag henna gere Christ ema gwiell an keth Sacrament ma SA 62
tha gwiel pith nyn go derag dorne SA 62a
hag a vyn mos heb gwill gycke CW 535
y fydn dew gwill indella CW 2380
Hye oare gwile padn da gen hye gl?n James Jenkins
Ny dale dien gwile treven war an treath James Jenkins.

In the light of these attested forms, perhaps the default form in KS  
should be gwil.

Nicholas
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan  1 17:06:33 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 17:06:33 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] to build a house, etc.
Message-ID: <18CA6F64-0062-4D13-9E3E-C2599C6B362D@gmail.com>

In Irish for ?to build a house? one either says teach a th?g?il,  
literally ?build a house? or teach a dh?anamh, literally ?make a  
house?. It seems that in Cornish the same choice exists. Here are some  
examples from the texts of references to building houses and other  
edifices:

DREHEVEL
my a vyn gruthyl castel ha drehevel thy'm ostel OM 1710
moyses whek ny a dreha ragon chy pols the wonys OM 1715-16
arluth ytho pyw a wra coul dreheuel ol the chy OM 2339-40
fossow da gans lym ha pry ha pen cref warnethe y gureugh drehevel OM  
2450-52
kyn fe dyswrys an temple the'n dor quyt na safe man me a'n dreha sur  
arte PC 344-46
hagh yn triddyth dyowgel ef a wra y trehevel PC 352-53
kyn fe dyswrys an temple yn tri dyth y'n drehafse PC 382-82
pup den yn bys-ma a wor den vythol na'n drehafse PC 386-87
den fyth ol murs dre pystry yn try deyth ny'n threhafse PC 1764-65
temple dev y'n tystrewys hag arte kyn pen try dyth guel ys kyns y'n  
dreheuys PC 2862-64
mab Noah vo an Den reg clapia kernuak en Termen an Tur Babel vo  
Derevalz William Gwavas
?difico?To build?C Dho dereval Lhuyd AB: 41c

BYLDYA
Cyte a ve settys bo byldys war meneth TH 17a
ha war an garrak ma me a vyn byldya ow egglos TH 44

GUL/GWIL
pur wyr y fenne terry an tempel cref hay wuzell PA 91b
Rag henna fystyn ke gura gorhel a blankos playnyys OM 949-50
my a vyn gruthyl castel ha drehevel thy'm ostel OM 1710
rag ny a yl gul scovva ov cortes vos goskesys OM 1717-18
orden bos gureys temple golow OM 2260
yn enour dev my a vyn yn dre-mme gruthyl temple OM 2283-84
Dauid ny wreth thy'mo chy yn certen bys venary OM 2333-34
masons ha karpentorryon trehesy-meyn tyorryon an temple may fe coul  
wreys OM 2410-12
omma the wul an temple a ruk y das the astel OM 2425-26
dun the leuerel yn scon d'agan arluth salamon bones an temple coul  
wrys OM 2579-81
gurys yv the temple hep son OM 2583
terry the'n dor an temple yn try geth y wul arta maga ta bythqueth del  
fue PC 2441-43
rag mur y carsen defry guthel thymmo oratry in herwyth  chy maria BM  
638-40
hag omma gul me a vyn ryb chapel maria wyn thym oratry BM 652-54
hag orth an ryuer surly a josselyne chapel guthel me a vyn rag gorthya  
maria wyn BM 1141-44
Ny dale dieu gwile treven war an treath James Jenkins
En levra coth po vo Tour Babel gwres John Boson.

It would seem, then, from the above examples that ?I shall build a  
house? can be Me a vydn gwil chy as well as Me a vydn derevel chy.

Nicholas
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From everson at evertype.com  Thu Jan  1 18:40:33 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:40:33 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>

On 1 Jan 2009, at 15:39, nicholas williams wrote:

> In the light of these attested forms, perhaps the default form in KS  
> should be gwil.

I think this is wise. It also makes mutations a bit easier for learners:

Compare gwil, qwil, wil, whil with gul, cul, wul, whul

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan  1 18:55:15 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:55:15 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <DF489D4C-6AFE-4369-93EF-AD9112728DC3@gmail.com>

when would one find whil/whul?

On 1 Jan 2009, at 18:40, Michael Everson wrote:

> whil




From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan  2 01:15:17 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 01:15:17 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>

On 1 Jan 2009, at 18:40, Michael Everson wrote:
> It also makes mutations a bit easier for learners:
> Compare gwil, qwil, wil, whil with gul, cul, wul, whul

That sounds like special pleading. What about all the other < g- >  
words for which no < gw- > form is feasible? Learners will still have  
to learn the mutations for initial G in those words; 'gul' has been  
just one more of those words.

Eddie Foirbeis Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow byner re bons lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 09:49:39 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 09:49:39 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>
	<66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AC46D583-CE35-4DB4-86DE-1B0B818E25C0@gmail.com>

gul/gwil is much, much commoner than any other gu-/ go- word.

On 2 Jan 2009, at 01:15, Eddie Climo wrote:

> What about all the other < g- > words for which no < gw- > form is  
> feasible?




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 10:02:23 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:02:23 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] gwil
Message-ID: <59941018-AB41-4A0F-BF4E-6B25F82644EB@gmail.com>

I should also have mentioned the following from Late Cornish as  
support for the spelling <gwil>:

Ha Deu laveras, gero ni guil dean an avain ni John Boson
ha gwra menz es th?es tha guil John Boson
wheha deth te ra guile whele, ha guil mens es des do wele bus an  
Sithas deth eu an Suil de Arlith deu nena naras guil whele vith Thomas  
Boson
ra hedna an Arlith reig guil an sithvas deth benigas ha Euhall benigas  
Thomas Boson
ha gura mens es dh?ys dha guil William Gwavas.

Nicholas
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From everson at evertype.com  Fri Jan  2 12:37:54 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:37:54 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>
	<66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1A5C919F-9036-4BE9-AB13-C4FC16C989A4@evertype.com>

On 2 Jan 2009, at 01:15, Eddie Climo wrote:

> On 1 Jan 2009, at 18:40, Michael Everson wrote:
>> It also makes mutations a bit easier for learners:
>> Compare gwil, qwil, wil, whil with gul, cul, wul, whul
>
> That sounds like special pleading.

I wasn't pleading. The forms <gwil> and <gul> and <gruthyl> are all  
attested. Nicholas was asking which form we might prefer in KS as  
primary.

Nicholas is right about *whil and *whul by the way; nothing will cause  
those.

> What about all the other < g- > words for which no < gw- > form is  
> feasible? Learners will still have to learn the mutations for  
> initial G in those words; 'gul' has been just one more of those words.

True, but this is a very common word.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From dlrt2 at cam.ac.uk  Fri Jan  2 09:48:58 2009
From: dlrt2 at cam.ac.uk (David Trethewey)
Date: 02 Jan 2009 09:48:58 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>
	<66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Prayer.1.3.1.0901020948580.10627@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk>

I have just subscribed, and wish to introduce myself. 

I have been learning Cornish for about 2 years, and have been following the 
discussions about the SWF and wish to learn more about the language, and 
ensure that what I learn is as authentic as possible.

David Trethewey



From christian.semmens at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 13:19:48 2009
From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:19:48 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <Prayer.1.3.1.0901020948580.10627@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>
	<66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>
	<Prayer.1.3.1.0901020948580.10627@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <bad50df40901020519i60d69aa8m564759a565aece54@mail.gmail.com>

Hi David,

Glad to see you here!

Christian

2009/1/2 David Trethewey <dlrt2 at cam.ac.uk>:
> I have just subscribed, and wish to introduce myself.
> I have been learning Cornish for about 2 years, and have been following the
> discussions about the SWF and wish to learn more about the language, and
> ensure that what I learn is as authentic as possible.
>
> David Trethewey
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>



From njawilliams at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 14:49:09 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 14:49:09 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Trevon
Message-ID: <5CA6A9CD-F328-469A-B29C-32C292E136EB@gmail.com>

I notice further that Pryce, ACB s.v. Tr?v, a house, gives the plurals
Treven, Trevow, Trevon and adds 'Treven is also the pl[ural] of Chy'.

Nicholas
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From ray at spyrys.org  Fri Jan  2 16:14:55 2009
From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 16:14:55 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <Prayer.1.3.1.0901020948580.10627@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>
	<66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>
	<Prayer.1.3.1.0901020948580.10627@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <56B33884-387B-4B53-A5EE-3220678FE1EA@spyrys.org>

Durdadha why David ha welcum.

Aswonys on ny a eyl y gela.

On 2 Gen 2009, at 09:48, David Trethewey wrote:

> I have just subscribed, and wish to introduce myself.
> I have been learning Cornish for about 2 years, and have been  
> following the discussions about the SWF and wish to learn more about  
> the language, and ensure that what I learn is as authentic as  
> possible.
>
> David Trethewey
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

Ray Chubb

Portreth
Kernow







From owen.e.cook at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 18:53:58 2009
From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:53:58 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] 'stranger'
In-Reply-To: <F01F7D1F-34FC-4912-8614-184324CAAF76@gmail.com>
References: <AB67BDE4-9D97-437B-9D63-291E3CBBFB48@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0812300359n30361ae8jd5e50befdcd0bc46@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDAAF2BA-4F99-49C9-9AF1-9C3C23BCAC99@gmail.com>
	<3ABA2145-8A73-417A-980E-1D057B9C1B46@evertype.com>
	<bad50df40812301259od5a3e22ocb79ce9172a5ecee@mail.gmail.com>
	<809F2F2D-7F7D-4EC3-884B-E5ECDCAAF4B7@evertype.com>
	<7B08F3EF-0259-4C04-9998-213C21914AE9@gmail.com>
	<9EEB1622-0603-44A8-B57E-3ACD1D2044A5@evertype.com>
	<F01F7D1F-34FC-4912-8614-184324CAAF76@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0901021053x2f1f5973w5d9880b516f1ee52@mail.gmail.com>

So in KS we would presumably write 'stranjer'. (I suggested <?>
thinking that we had /?:/, which I think was also what Craig had in
mind.)

~~Owen

2008/12/31 nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com> rug screfa:
> I meant [ae].



From dlrt2 at cam.ac.uk  Fri Jan  2 19:18:25 2009
From: dlrt2 at cam.ac.uk (David Trethewey)
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 19:18:25 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <56B33884-387B-4B53-A5EE-3220678FE1EA@spyrys.org>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>	<66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>	<Prayer.1.3.1.0901020948580.10627@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk>
	<56B33884-387B-4B53-A5EE-3220678FE1EA@spyrys.org>
Message-ID: <495E6881.1010007@cam.ac.uk>

Thanks for the welcome.

I have actually had the chance to look at the original texts in a 
lecture course up at my uni in Cambridge.

Paul Russell, a Welsh scholar also lectures short courses in Cornish and 
Breton, and I had the chance to read extracts from the original texts of 
Origo Mundi, Passyon agan Arluth and Bewnans Meriasek.

    As a learner, I hope I can provide a learner's perspective on the 
current discussions.I have learnt from a variety of materials, beginning 
in UC with the book Cornish for Beginners by Peter Pool. I've also 
learnt from books in Kemmyn. I've been undeterred by the arguments about 
the orthography, it can easily be seen that the modern form, whichever 
orthography, is the same language as the traditional one.
     I can see the argument for traditional spelling partly because that 
makes the traditional texts so much more accessible. I also think that 
it is important to ensure that the orthography makes it possible to know 
as accurately as possible how to pronounce words. With the increasing 
availability of online podcasts and the like, we may find this less of a 
problem as time goes on, but for myself having learnt mostly from texts, 
I found this one of the main advantages of Kemmyn.
    I think that KS does quite a good job of reconciling traditional 
spellings with pronouncability. In my opinion the main difficulty with 
the SWF is that it is not a single form. By giving options in spelling 
with its side forms and variant forms it perpetuates the tripartite 
split. What will happen is each party will produce their own 
dictionaries, learning resources etc. one in the Main Form, the other in 
Late, the other in the traditional graphs. With a single written form, 
we could produce a single dictionary for the entire revived language. 
The problem with having 3 written forms, is that as each party produces 
its own dictionary etc. we will have different neologisms and borrowings 
and the split will grow over time.
    I'm trying to grow my vocabulary by reading texts in the language. 
This has been mostly Kemmyn texts so far (An Gannas, a book of poetry in 
Kemmyn and some stories by Wella Brown), but what do people recommend 
for what I should read next? I'm slightly reluctant to change completely 
to UCR since that will be supplanted in time by something based on KS or 
the SWF-Tradycyonal and I'd have to change my spelling twice.

David

Ray Chubb wrote:
> Durdadha why David ha welcum.
>
> Aswonys on ny a eyl y gela.
>
> On 2 Gen 2009, at 09:48, David Trethewey wrote:
>
>> I have just subscribed, and wish to introduce myself.
>> I have been learning Cornish for about 2 years, and have been 
>> following the discussions about the SWF and wish to learn more about 
>> the language, and ensure that what I learn is as authentic as possible.
>>
>> David Trethewey
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
> Ray Chubb
>
> Portreth
> Kernow
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Fri Jan  2 19:22:15 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 19:22:15 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'stranger'
In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0901021053x2f1f5973w5d9880b516f1ee52@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AB67BDE4-9D97-437B-9D63-291E3CBBFB48@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0812300359n30361ae8jd5e50befdcd0bc46@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDAAF2BA-4F99-49C9-9AF1-9C3C23BCAC99@gmail.com>
	<3ABA2145-8A73-417A-980E-1D057B9C1B46@evertype.com>
	<bad50df40812301259od5a3e22ocb79ce9172a5ecee@mail.gmail.com>
	<809F2F2D-7F7D-4EC3-884B-E5ECDCAAF4B7@evertype.com>
	<7B08F3EF-0259-4C04-9998-213C21914AE9@gmail.com>
	<9EEB1622-0603-44A8-B57E-3ACD1D2044A5@evertype.com>
	<F01F7D1F-34FC-4912-8614-184324CAAF76@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901021053x2f1f5973w5d9880b516f1ee52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA34791A-5BBB-4499-8DE6-147623ACC6D8@freenet.co.uk>

It was indeed, Owen - that "air" vowel sound we have in West Cornwall,  
I think the "straight" one rather than the pitch-bend variety heard in  
"shaft".  This isn't easy to describe but if you can imagine saying  
"share-eft" (with no R pronunciation, of course), then you're close to  
it.

Craig


On 2 Gen 2009, at 18:53, Owen Cook wrote:

> So in KS we would presumably write 'stranjer'. (I suggested <?>
> thinking that we had /?:/, which I think was also what Craig had in
> mind.)
>
> ~~Owen
>
> 2008/12/31 nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com> rug screfa:
>> I meant [ae].
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From christian.semmens at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 20:09:59 2009
From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:09:59 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'stranger'
In-Reply-To: <809F2F2D-7F7D-4EC3-884B-E5ECDCAAF4B7@evertype.com>
References: <AB67BDE4-9D97-437B-9D63-291E3CBBFB48@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0812300359n30361ae8jd5e50befdcd0bc46@mail.gmail.com>
	<CDAAF2BA-4F99-49C9-9AF1-9C3C23BCAC99@gmail.com>
	<3ABA2145-8A73-417A-980E-1D057B9C1B46@evertype.com>
	<bad50df40812301259od5a3e22ocb79ce9172a5ecee@mail.gmail.com>
	<809F2F2D-7F7D-4EC3-884B-E5ECDCAAF4B7@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <bad50df40901021209r545051f1we38944546a912fb8@mail.gmail.com>

That would depend upon whether the Cornish word was a loan word from
English or French, surely? I was coming from the position of an
English loan.

Christian

2008/12/30 Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>:

> We have no [?:] in KS's recommendations. We have short [?] and long [e?]. To
> achieve [stre:nd???] we could only write <str?njer> or <strainjer>.
>
> For me, ?tranger leads to <straunjer>, but at this stage maybe we should
> look at the texts or this word and derivatives.
>
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com

From njawilliams at gmail.com  Fri Jan  2 21:06:26 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 21:06:26 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <495E6881.1010007@cam.ac.uk>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>	<66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>	<Prayer.1.3.1.0901020948580.10627@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk>
	<56B33884-387B-4B53-A5EE-3220678FE1EA@spyrys.org>
	<495E6881.1010007@cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <6E6928E8-0AD2-457D-A070-313AB09AB996@gmail.com>

The traditional texts in the original spelling, starting with CW,  
Bewnans Ke and Beunans Meriasek.
And for prose Tregear. The subject-matter isn't everbody's cup of tea,  
but the language is interesting.

Nicholas

On 2 Jan 2009, at 19:18, David Trethewey wrote:

> but what do people recommend for what I should read next?




From ajtrim at msn.com  Fri Jan  2 23:30:20 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 23:30:20 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] long and short forms of bos
In-Reply-To: <56BF3748-2E8E-4937-AEAA-806C60300CA7@gmail.com><9BEB0B24-F101-4C26-A9EA-50C5734BD38E@spyrys.org><25ED353F-4E25-405F-BEAE-60424AB4DC79@gmail.com><0C67A19D-ED7D-48EA-8151-195EFC88769F@spyrys.org>
	<B6348DB2-1D64-4D6D-BDBB-419DB0C534FE@gmail.com>
References: <56BF3748-2E8E-4937-AEAA-806C60300CA7@gmail.com><9BEB0B24-F101-4C26-A9EA-50C5734BD38E@spyrys.org><25ED353F-4E25-405F-BEAE-60424AB4DC79@gmail.com><0C67A19D-ED7D-48EA-8151-195EFC88769F@spyrys.org>
	<B6348DB2-1D64-4D6D-BDBB-419DB0C534FE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS88AB583B238CE934C1829CCE20@phx.gbl>

I think that one of the problems that has contributed to poor Cornish grammar, and the slipping of standards during the last 40 years, is the poor teaching of English grammar.
People cannot relate to the grammar of other languages (including Kernowek) because they don't understand their own grammar.
People can read the traditional texts (most are available) but they cannot analyse the traditional texts (by themselves) to gain from the experience.
The result is that people have lost the ability to teach themselves from reading examples.
Good teachers and multi-media learning aids are now more important than they once were.


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: nicholas williams 
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 10:25 AM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] long and short forms of bos


That is a quotation from the texts: 


ha pan semlant vs ganso 
lauar ol an guyr thy'mmo RD 2060-61.


And, as far as I can see, is the only attested example of semlant.


Caradar, excellent linguist and indeed Celtic scholar, that he was,
tried whenever possible to take his examples from the texts.


One of the problems is that people can't and don't read the texts.
When they are told that something is not Cornish, they then argue 
that it is now part of the revived language and IS Cornish.
Given that hardly anybody speaks Cornish really fluently and that
revived Cornish is for the most part halting and highly Anglicised,
this argument seems to me to be lacking in force.


Nicholas








On 29 Dec 2008, at 09:59, Ray Chubb wrote:


   For example on page 7 he highlights 'pan semlant us ganso?' instead of the expected 'fatel yw y semlant?'




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Jan  3 01:10:15 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 01:10:15 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <6E6928E8-0AD2-457D-A070-313AB09AB996@gmail.com>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>	<A617FCDE-56C7-4183-BA00-D44B022C7D0E@evertype.com>	<66C3F1E4-1385-4966-B32A-6946A5942DB0@yahoo.co.uk>	<Prayer.1.3.1.0901020948580.10627@hermes-1.csi.cam.ac.uk>
	<56B33884-387B-4B53-A5EE-3220678FE1EA@spyrys.org>
	<495E6881.1010007@cam.ac.uk>
	<6E6928E8-0AD2-457D-A070-313AB09AB996@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B676CB14-2238-4A87-86AE-64D27A6C65DD@yahoo.co.uk>

On 2 Jan 2009, at 21:06, nicholas williams wrote:
> The traditional texts in the original spelling, starting with CW,  
> Bewnans Ke and Beunans Meriasek.
> And for prose Tregear. The subject-matter isn't everbody's cup of  
> tea, but the language is interesting.
>
> On 2 Jan 2009, at 19:18, David Trethewey wrote:
>> ... but what do people recommend for what I should read next?

Wolcum osta omma, David!

I've compiled an extensive list of Cornish material that can be  
downloaded free (and legally) from the web, along with a sampler of  
items for each of the other Celtic languages. Amongst other books, it  
contains almost all of the miracle plays, and a lot of Late Cornish  
material as well.

If you're interested, I can easily e-mail you a copy of the file,  
which gives the author and title of each item, along with the URL  
where it's available.

Send me an e-mail off list, if you like, and I'll get back to you.

Eddie Foirbeis Climo
eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk
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From s.hewitt at unesco.org  Sat Jan  3 10:23:04 2009
From: s.hewitt at unesco.org (Hewitt, Stephen)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 11:23:04 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] 'stranger'
References: <AB67BDE4-9D97-437B-9D63-291E3CBBFB48@gmail.com><6e5d3b9f0812300359n30361ae8jd5e50befdcd0bc46@mail.gmail.com><CDAAF2BA-4F99-49C9-9AF1-9C3C23BCAC99@gmail.com><3ABA2145-8A73-417A-980E-1D057B9C1B46@evertype.com><bad50df40812301259od5a3e22ocb79ce9172a5ecee@mail.gmail.com><809F2F2D-7F7D-4EC3-884B-E5ECDCAAF4B7@evertype.com><7B08F3EF-0259-4C04-9998-213C21914AE9@gmail.com><9EEB1622-0603-44A8-B57E-3ACD1D2044A5@evertype.com><F01F7D1F-34FC-4912-8614-184324CAAF76@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901021053x2f1f5973w5d9880b516f1ee52@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DF54A58A8C30A746BF3B834B4A6BA1AE13CFC9@MAILSERVER-01.hq.int.unesco.org>

I know "Cornish isn't Breton", but Nicholas Williams has recently appealed to Breton in connection with a question of Cornish.
 
It may be of interest to know that there are in Breton a number of words in <a?ch, a?j> in which both (? means nasalisation of the preceding vowel(s)) /a?/ and /?i?/ pronunciations are widespread. Standard Breton has <da?jer, estra?jour> for "danger, stranger", but in my Treger (NE) dialect, and in many others, the normal pronunciation is /d?i?zh?r, estr?i?zhur/. The standard spelling for "change" is <che?ch>, but the normal pronunciations are again either /sha?sh/ or /sh?i?sh/. 
 
I am no specialist in the history of French, but I gather these doublets go back to differential treatment of <anch, anj> in Ile-de-France (the ancestor of Standard Modern French) and Norman French (the ancestor of the French element in English), /a?/ being typical of Ile-de-France, and /?i?/ of Norman and western dialects. Both treatments are found in Breton, with /?i?ch, ?i?j/ probably predominating in the spoken dialects. 
 
Could it not be that what was written in Cornish <stranjer, stranger> was actually pronounced /streinj?r/, as in English?
 
Steve Hewitt

________________________________

From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net on behalf of Owen Cook
Sent: Fri 02/01/2009 19:53
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] 'stranger'



So in KS we would presumably write 'stranjer'. (I suggested <?>
thinking that we had /?:/, which I think was also what Craig had in
mind.)

~~Owen

2008/12/31 nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com> rug screfa:
> I meant [ae].

_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net


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From ajtrim at msn.com  Sat Jan  3 13:58:53 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:58:53 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS5EE7B6D539E8DAAEC14DECCE30@phx.gbl>

Nicholas,

You did not say why you prefer <gul> to <gwil>.

<gwil> is OK by me, as long as that spelling matches the preferred pronunciation.
The quoted attestations are very close to <gwil>, especially in James Jenkins.
However, why the apparent preference for the double <l> ?
Is <gwiell> one syllable or two?


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: nicholas williams 
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 3:39 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS


In KS originally the preferred form of the verbal noun of ?to do? was <gwyl>. Then we decided that long /i:/ in monosyllables should be written <i>, e.g. in gwin, gwir, pris, etc.
That would have meant writing <gwil> ?to do?, a spelling which is not actually attested. I decided in my own writing to revert to the Nancean form <gul>. 


Although *gwil is not attested, forms close to it are:


pan vonsy o gwiell an ober warbarth SA 61
e ma o gweill an keth sentence ma playn SA 61a
pan vo an geir devethis rag gwiell an reverent Sacrament SA 62
rag henna gere Christ ema gwiell an keth Sacrament ma SA 62
tha gwiel pith nyn go derag dorne SA 62a
hag a vyn mos heb gwill gycke CW 535
y fydn dew gwill indella CW 2380
Hye oare gwile padn da gen hye gl?n James Jenkins
Ny dale dien gwile treven war an treath James Jenkins.


In the light of these attested forms, perhaps the default form in KS should be gwil.


Nicholas


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan  3 16:40:38 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 16:40:38 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS5EE7B6D539E8DAAEC14DECCE30@phx.gbl>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS5EE7B6D539E8DAAEC14DECCE30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <773360C3-CDB6-48AE-B2AD-F5C8DB263A9E@gmail.com>

One: [gwi:l]. There may be a slight off-glide before the /l/.

On 3 Jan 2009, at 13:58, <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> Is <gwiell> one syllable or two?




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan  3 17:00:25 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:00:25 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS5EE7B6D539E8DAAEC14DECCE30@phx.gbl>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS5EE7B6D539E8DAAEC14DECCE30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B96EF587-37B1-4F26-956C-026B1F2C03F9@gmail.com>

1. [gwi:l] is easier for Anglophones than [gy:l].
2. gwil lenites its initial to wil regularly. gul > wul is slightly  
less regular.
3. gweel seems to be the preferred form of LCR speakers and gwil is  
the same form as that.

Gul is good Cornish and cannot be proscribed. KS should allow both,  
but gwil might well
be considered the preferred form.

Nicholas



On 3 Jan 2009, at 13:58, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> You did not say why you prefer <gul> to <gwil>.
>

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From ajtrim at msn.com  Sat Jan  3 19:54:43 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:54:43 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com><COL115-DS5EE7B6D539E8DAAEC14DECCE30@phx.gbl>
	<B96EF587-37B1-4F26-956C-026B1F2C03F9@gmail.com>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com><COL115-DS5EE7B6D539E8DAAEC14DECCE30@phx.gbl>
	<B96EF587-37B1-4F26-956C-026B1F2C03F9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS5A7BCBB017A1353671117CCE30@phx.gbl>

Nicholas,

Yes, I agree. <gwil> may be better than <gul> as our first choice for "to do" in KS.
I'm happy to use <gwil>.
However, on 01/01/2009 15:39 you wrote: "That would have meant writing <gwil> 'to do', a spelling which is not actually attested. I decided in my own writing to revert to the Nancean form <gul>."
You did not say why.
It just seemed to be an odd comment when you were clearly backing <gwil>.


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: nicholas williams 
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 5:00 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS


1. [gwi:l] is easier for Anglophones than [gy:l]. 
2. gwil lenites its initial to wil regularly. gul > wul is slightly less regular. 
3. gweel seems to be the preferred form of LCR speakers and gwil is the same form as that.


Gul is good Cornish and cannot be proscribed. KS should allow both, but gwil might well
be considered the preferred form.


Nicholas






On 3 Jan 2009, at 13:58, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:


  You did not say why you prefer <gul> to <gwil>.






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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan  3 20:22:27 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 20:22:27 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'to do' in KS
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS5A7BCBB017A1353671117CCE30@phx.gbl>
References: <6E378F7E-F777-48CB-9020-C4F20E9DDA23@gmail.com><COL115-DS5EE7B6D539E8DAAEC14DECCE30@phx.gbl>
	<B96EF587-37B1-4F26-956C-026B1F2C03F9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS5A7BCBB017A1353671117CCE30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <7EF0CB1D-0EC4-4A99-90FC-8A6C9D52209C@gmail.com>

I have changed my mind. I did revert to gul, and have subsequently  
started to write gwil.
Neither is wrong and gwil, though not attested, is as close to the  
attested form gwile as
KS pr?v is to the attested form preve, or KS hav and gw?v are to the  
attested forms have and gwave.

Nicholas

On 3 Jan 2009, at 19:54, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> You did not say why.
> It just seemed to be an odd comment when you were clearly backing  
> <gwil>.

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan  3 21:33:34 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:33:34 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
Message-ID: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>

The word kal 'membrum virile' used by John Boson and respelt by George  
as *kalgh
is attested elsewhere:

Mentula?A man's privy member? C. & Ar[morican] Kal AB: 89a
Penis?C. Lost, kal AB: 116c
Veretrum?A man's privy member. C. Kal AB: 171c
KAL, membrum virile Pryce.

We thus have 5 occurrences all spelt <kal>.
What possible reason was there for the spelling *<kalgh>?

Nicholas

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From craig at agantavas.org  Sat Jan  3 21:58:07 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:58:07 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E43954CB-ED11-4F22-8E9D-4A06166119E4@agantavas.org>

Simply because it's kalc'h in Breton and he seems to think that  
Cornish and Breton are the same language.  He failed to notice that  
the word is cal/caly in Welsh.

Craig


On 3 Gen 2009, at 21:33, nicholas williams wrote:

> The word kal 'membrum virile' used by John Boson and respelt by  
> George as *kalgh
> is attested elsewhere:
>
> Mentula?A man's privy member? C. & Ar[morican] Kal AB: 89a
> Penis?C. Lost, kal AB: 116c
> Veretrum?A man's privy member. C. Kal AB: 171c
> KAL, membrum virile Pryce.
>
> We thus have 5 occurrences all spelt <kal>.
> What possible reason was there for the spelling *<kalgh>?
>
> Nicholas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From craig at agantavas.org  Sat Jan  3 22:15:55 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 22:15:55 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>

I forgot to add that the word is cal in place names, e.g. Calvadnack  
(<cal vannek), Colvannick (<cal vannek), Carrallack (< ker gallek),  
Colvenner (2 exx.) (<cal veneth).

The first example has: <cal>, 5 times from the available spellings,  
all 14th/15th century.

The second has: <cal> 8 times; <kal> twice; <col> once.

The third has: <-gallek> once; <-kallek> once, <-allek> once and  
<allack> once.

The fourth has, for the Cury site: <cal> once and <kal> once and,
		for the Wendron site: <cal> once.

Not even a hint of a <-gh> ending, so, put with Nicholas's textual  
examples, that makes 28 historic examples of the word with no sign of  
<-gh>, against none that have such an ending.  Ergo, George's spelling  
is a fiction and is not Cornish.  The SWF <kalgh, calgh, kal', cal'>  
are therefore incorrect and should be <kal, cal> only.

Craig



On 3 Gen 2009, at 21:33, nicholas williams wrote:

> The word kal 'membrum virile' used by John Boson and respelt by  
> George as *kalgh
> is attested elsewhere:
>
> Mentula?A man's privy member? C. & Ar[morican] Kal AB: 89a
> Penis?C. Lost, kal AB: 116c
> Veretrum?A man's privy member. C. Kal AB: 171c
> KAL, membrum virile Pryce.
>
> We thus have 5 occurrences all spelt <kal>.
> What possible reason was there for the spelling *<kalgh>?
>
> Nicholas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan  3 22:41:59 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 22:41:59 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
	<DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <E6ED8730-1828-449A-A523-01CED7A8B331@gmail.com>

Though three examples are from Lhuyd, one from Pryce may derive from  
Lhuyd as may the example from JBoson.
What does the element mean in placenames?

Nicholas


On 3 Jan 2009, at 22:15, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> at makes 28 historic examples of the word with no sign of <-gh>,

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From ajtrim at msn.com  Sat Jan  3 22:49:07 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 22:49:07 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS79EE06F70B2A5279BAC03CCE30@phx.gbl>

Ken George does say, in his Gerlyver Kernewek Kemmyn, that "the final [x] is not attested in Cornish".
He gives the Breton as "kalc'h".
Presumably, Cornish was wrong for not being sufficiently Breton!

Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: nicholas williams 
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:33 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited


The word kal 'membrum virile' used by John Boson and respelt by George as *kalgh 
is attested elsewhere: 


Mentula?A man's privy member? C. & Ar[morican] Kal AB: 89a
Penis?C. Lost, kal AB: 116c
Veretrum?A man's privy member. C. Kal AB: 171c
KAL, membrum virile Pryce.


We thus have 5 occurrences all spelt <kal>.
What possible reason was there for the spelling *<kalgh>?


Nicholas




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan  3 23:10:30 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 23:10:30 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS79EE06F70B2A5279BAC03CCE30@phx.gbl>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS79EE06F70B2A5279BAC03CCE30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E0B9FAD5-7E6A-416B-B643-77B26944D2DF@gmail.com>

Cornish and Breton are very different, for all that they are closely  
related.
Breton is SW British transposed to Gaul and learnt and spoken by  
Gaulish speakers.
Later Breton was heavily affected by French.

Cornish is SW British that never moved,
but was very heavily affected later by Old English (Late West Saxon)
and later Middle and New English.

George's naive (and indeed, groundless) assumption that Cornish was  
essentially
a dialect of Breton is the origin of most of the mistakes in
KK. And it is on the basis of these mistakes that the
orthography was concocted. Some of the inauthentic
features resulting from these mistakes in
KK, persist in SWF Main e.g. <iw> in diw, diwedh, etc.
Not to mention all the inauthentic graphs
like *hw, *kw and final i in *usi, *ki, etc.

Of course George's research was done in Brittany,
where Breton and Brittany were much better understood than
Cornish and Cornwall.

In recent articles I have attempted to show that
Cornish and Welsh had as much in common with
each other as Cornish had with Breton.

Nicholas



On 3 Jan 2009, at 22:49, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> Presumably, Cornish was wrong for not being sufficiently Breton!
>

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From craig at agantavas.org  Sun Jan  4 05:19:30 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 05:19:30 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <E6ED8730-1828-449A-A523-01CED7A8B331@gmail.com>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
	<DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>
	<E6ED8730-1828-449A-A523-01CED7A8B331@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5BDFDB79-69A4-4B25-A989-6A61AB85382A@agantavas.org>

In place-names, <cal> is one of several "body-part" words used for  
topographic features (<bron> <tyn> and <tor> being other common  
examples).  It would signify a pointed hill or rock.  In Carrallack,  
St Just, (derived from ker + callek, lenited to gallek) the adjectival  
form is given and I think this might be the sole example of the  
adjective.  The name would mean something on the lines of: "fort by  
the penis-like feature" (undoubtedly the adjacent hill of Carn  
Bosavern which, seen from the west where Carrallack stands, has a very  
distinctive shape).

Craig

On 3 Gen 2009, at 22:41, nicholas williams wrote:

> Though three examples are from Lhuyd, one from Pryce may derive from  
> Lhuyd as may the example from JBoson.
> What does the element mean in placenames?
>
> Nicholas
>
>
> On 3 Jan 2009, at 22:15, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>> at makes 28 historic examples of the word with no sign of <-gh>,
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From owen.e.cook at gmail.com  Sun Jan  4 14:14:42 2009
From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:14:42 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <5BDFDB79-69A4-4B25-A989-6A61AB85382A@agantavas.org>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
	<DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>
	<E6ED8730-1828-449A-A523-01CED7A8B331@gmail.com>
	<5BDFDB79-69A4-4B25-A989-6A61AB85382A@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0901040614xdd043ebu78df8ec5fe7f5c54@mail.gmail.com>

The fact that Lhuyd apparently always has this as 'kal' rather than
'k?l' makes me think that the vowel is short, and that in KS we should
write the word as 'call' (corresponding nicely with the adjective
'callek') or else 'c?l'. As a placename prefix, of course, 'cal-' is
well and good as far as KS would be concerned. Any thoughts?

~~Owen

2009/1/4 Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org> rug screfa:
> In place-names, <cal> is one of several "body-part" words used for
> topographic features (<bron> <tyn> and <tor> being other common examples).
>  It would signify a pointed hill or rock.  In Carrallack, St Just, (derived
> from ker + callek, lenited to gallek) the adjectival form is given and I
> think this might be the sole example of the adjective.  The name would mean
> something on the lines of: "fort by the penis-like feature" (undoubtedly the
> adjacent hill of Carn Bosavern which, seen from the west where Carrallack
> stands, has a very distinctive shape).
>
> Craig



From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sun Jan  4 14:19:17 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 14:19:17 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0901040614xdd043ebu78df8ec5fe7f5c54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
	<DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>
	<E6ED8730-1828-449A-A523-01CED7A8B331@gmail.com>
	<5BDFDB79-69A4-4B25-A989-6A61AB85382A@agantavas.org>
	<6e5d3b9f0901040614xdd043ebu78df8ec5fe7f5c54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44D44A07-8A0E-440E-B66E-C5EF95E7E4B1@gmail.com>

It almost certainly is short. Perhaps a better spelling would be <c?l>.

Nicholas


On 4 Jan 2009, at 14:14, Owen Cook wrote:

> The fact that Lhuyd apparently always has this as 'kal' rather than
> 'k?l' makes me think that the vowel is short

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From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Sun Jan  4 15:51:16 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:51:16 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <20090104155117.69E7F13BC185@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

 

I've now spelt <kall, call>, because I think it contains a short vowel. I
have mentioned reconstructed *kalgh as a possible older form in the entry,
but not recommended it as a main entry. Is this feasible? How about the
plural?

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Weatherhill
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:16 PM



 

I forgot to add that the word is cal in place names, e.g. Calvadnack  

(<cal vannek), Colvannick (<cal vannek), Carrallack (< ker gallek),  

Colvenner (2 exx.) (<cal veneth).

 

The first example has: <cal>, 5 times from the available spellings,  

all 14th/15th century.

 

The second has: <cal> 8 times; <kal> twice; <col> once.

 

The third has: <-gallek> once; <-kallek> once, <-allek> once and  

<allack> once.

 

The fourth has, for the Cury site: <cal> once and <kal> once and,

                               for the Wendron site: <cal> once.

 

Not even a hint of a <-gh> ending, so, put with Nicholas's textual  

examples, that makes 28 historic examples of the word with no sign of  

<-gh>, against none that have such an ending.  Ergo, George's spelling  

is a fiction and is not Cornish.  The SWF <kalgh, calgh, kal', cal'>  

are therefore incorrect and should be <kal, cal> only.

 

Craig

 

 

 

On 3 Gen 2009, at 21:33, nicholas williams wrote:

 

> The word kal 'membrum virile' used by John Boson and respelt by  

> George as *kalgh

> is attested elsewhere:

> 

> Mentula.A man's privy member. C. & Ar[morican] Kal AB: 89a

> Penis.C. Lost, kal AB: 116c

> Veretrum.A man's privy member. C. Kal AB: 171c

> KAL, membrum virile Pryce.

> 

> We thus have 5 occurrences all spelt <kal>.

> What possible reason was there for the spelling *<kalgh>?

> 

> Nicholas

> 

> _______________________________________________

> Spellyans mailing list

> Spellyans at kernowek.net

> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

 

--

Craig Weatherhill

 

 

_______________________________________________

Spellyans mailing list

Spellyans at kernowek.net

http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

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From everson at evertype.com  Sun Jan  4 16:08:12 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:08:12 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090104155117.69E7F13BC185@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090104155117.69E7F13BC185@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <9FA6F2C2-030B-4486-A765-A3B14D5F8A33@evertype.com>

On 4 Jan 2009, at 15:51, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> I?ve now spelt <kall, call>, because I think it contains a short  
> vowel. I have mentioned reconstructed *kalgh as a possible older  
> form in the entry, but not recommended it as a main entry. Is this  
> feasible? How about the plural?

I would not mention the bretonization.

On balance I think this word would look better as <k?l>~<c?l>. The - 
all forms will tend to be pronounced as in English, I think. There are  
words in <-al> that have a lowered pronunciation (long vowel) that  
more or less rhymes with English <call>.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From craig at agantavas.org  Sun Jan  4 16:40:47 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 16:40:47 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <9FA6F2C2-030B-4486-A765-A3B14D5F8A33@evertype.com>
References: <20090104155117.69E7F13BC185@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<9FA6F2C2-030B-4486-A765-A3B14D5F8A33@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <A899F077-410D-4AA4-9E16-AD32A4ED9DA9@agantavas.org>

There is no evidence at all that *kalgh, *calgh was ever an older form  
or even existed.  It interests me that modern Breton spells the word  
kalc'h and yet Lhuyd lists the Armorican as Kal.  Have we any evidence  
to show the antiquity of the -c'h form?  The Welsh, as mentioned has  
no such ending, either.

*Kalgh, *calgh is a false word that only invites confusion with the  
word of identical spelling, which translates as "lime" (geological).   
Surely it would make sense to differentiate between the two by  
spelling, just as (dare I say it), the retention of <au> would have  
avoided the kons/cons situation.

Craig

Craig
On 4 Gen 2009, at 16:08, Michael Everson wrote:

> On 4 Jan 2009, at 15:51, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
>> I?ve now spelt <kall, call>, because I think it contains a short  
>> vowel. I have mentioned reconstructed *kalgh as a possible older  
>> form in the entry, but not recommended it as a main entry. Is this  
>> feasible? How about the plural?
>
> I would not mention the bretonization.
>
> On balance I think this word would look better as <k?l>~<c?l>. The - 
> all forms will tend to be pronounced as in English, I think. There  
> are words in <-al> that have a lowered pronunciation (long vowel)  
> that more or less rhymes with English <call>.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From ajtrim at msn.com  Mon Jan  5 00:27:21 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 00:27:21 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090104155117.69E7F13BC185@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090104155117.69E7F13BC185@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS16AE236BF97C1DA2940FFACCE10@phx.gbl>

I would currently write <call> sg., <callow> pl. and <callek> adj.

There may be a case for <kellys> pl.

(Is this really the same word as <kell> sg., <kellow> pl. and <dewgell> dl. for the nearby parts?)


In my opinion, <kall> ~ <call> is best for the SWF.
I would ignore <kalgh>, and I really dislike <kal' >.


The SWF does not, of course, allow diacritical marks.

The best solution for KS may well be <c?l> sg. and <calow> pl..


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: Daniel Prohaska 
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 3:51 PM
To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' 
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kal revisited


 

I've now spelt <kall, call>, because I think it contains a short vowel. I have mentioned reconstructed *kalgh as a possible older form in the entry, but not recommended it as a main entry. Is this feasible? How about the plural?

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Weatherhill
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:16 PM



 

I forgot to add that the word is cal in place names, e.g. Calvadnack  

(<cal vannek), Colvannick (<cal vannek), Carrallack (< ker gallek),  

Colvenner (2 exx.) (<cal veneth).

 

The first example has: <cal>, 5 times from the available spellings,  

all 14th/15th century.

 

The second has: <cal> 8 times; <kal> twice; <col> once.

 

The third has: <-gallek> once; <-kallek> once, <-allek> once and  

<allack> once.

 

The fourth has, for the Cury site: <cal> once and <kal> once and,

                               for the Wendron site: <cal> once.

 

Not even a hint of a <-gh> ending, so, put with Nicholas's textual  

examples, that makes 28 historic examples of the word with no sign of  

<-gh>, against none that have such an ending.  Ergo, George's spelling  

is a fiction and is not Cornish.  The SWF <kalgh, calgh, kal', cal'>  

are therefore incorrect and should be <kal, cal> only.

 

Craig

 

 

 

On 3 Gen 2009, at 21:33, nicholas williams wrote:

 

> The word kal 'membrum virile' used by John Boson and respelt by  

> George as *kalgh

> is attested elsewhere:

> 

> Mentula.A man's privy member. C. & Ar[morican] Kal AB: 89a

> Penis.C. Lost, kal AB: 116c

> Veretrum.A man's privy member. C. Kal AB: 171c

> KAL, membrum virile Pryce.

> 

> We thus have 5 occurrences all spelt <kal>.

> What possible reason was there for the spelling *<kalgh>?

> 

> Nicholas

> 

> _______________________________________________

> Spellyans mailing list

> Spellyans at kernowek.net

> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

 

--

Craig Weatherhill

 

 

_______________________________________________

Spellyans mailing list

Spellyans at kernowek.net

http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Mon Jan  5 11:22:19 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:22:19 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS16AE236BF97C1DA2940FFACCE10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

The various dictionaries give <cal, -yow> (UCR), <kalgh, -yow> (KK), <cal,
caliaw> (RLC), so it seems there is a consensus for the plural suffix to be
<-yow> rather than <-ow>. SWF with a short vowel would need to write <kall,
kallyow> {call, callyow}.

Dan

 

  _____  

From: ajtrim at msn.com
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 1:27 AM

 

I would currently write <call> sg., <callow> pl. and <callek> adj.

There may be a case for <kellys> pl.

 

(Is this really the same word as <kell> sg., <kellow> pl. and <dewgell> dl.
for the nearby parts?)

 

In my opinion, <kall> ~ <call> is best for the SWF.

I would ignore <kalgh>, and I really dislike <kal' >.

 

The SWF does not, of course, allow diacritical marks.

The best solution for KS may well be <c?l> sg. and <calow> pl..

Regards,

Andrew J. Trim

 

 

 

From: Daniel <mailto:daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>  Prohaska 

Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 3:51 PM

To: 'Standard <mailto:spellyans at kernowek.net>  Cornish discussion list' 

Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kal revisited

 

 

I?ve now spelt <kall, call>, because I think it contains a short vowel. I
have mentioned reconstructed *kalgh as a possible older form in the entry,
but not recommended it as a main entry. Is this feasible? How about the
plural?

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Weatherhill
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:16 PM

 

I forgot to add that the word is cal in place names, e.g. Calvadnack  

(<cal vannek), Colvannick (<cal vannek), Carrallack (< ker gallek),  

Colvenner (2 exx.) (<cal veneth).

 

The first example has: <cal>, 5 times from the available spellings,  

all 14th/15th century.

 

The second has: <cal> 8 times; <kal> twice; <col> once.

 

The third has: <-gallek> once; <-kallek> once, <-allek> once and  

<allack> once.

 

The fourth has, for the Cury site: <cal> once and <kal> once and,

                               for the Wendron site: <cal> once.

 

Not even a hint of a <-gh> ending, so, put with Nicholas's textual  

examples, that makes 28 historic examples of the word with no sign of  

<-gh>, against none that have such an ending.  Ergo, George's spelling  

is a fiction and is not Cornish.  The SWF <kalgh, calgh, kal', cal'>  

are therefore incorrect and should be <kal, cal> only.

 

Craig

 

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From everson at evertype.com  Mon Jan  5 13:35:10 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 13:35:10 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <E551834F-543C-4B46-92AD-9D58C23DC20D@evertype.com>

On 5 Jan 2009, at 11:22, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> The various dictionaries give <cal, -yow> (UCR), <kalgh, -yow> (KK),  
> <cal, caliaw> (RLC), so it seems there is a consensus for the plural  
> suffix to be <-yow> rather than <-ow>. SWF with a short vowel would  
> need to write <kall, kallyow> {call, callyow}.

I will say again, I think that <call> will yield the wrong  
pronunciation. <c?l> pl <calyow> is preferable (and more authentic)  
for this word.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From ajtrim at msn.com  Mon Jan  5 14:02:39 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:02:39 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS7C7FBC19E273D3381BA98CCE10@phx.gbl>

Dan,

I'll go with the consensus, with regards to the <y>, but is there any evidence for it?
There are only about four other words with the ending <-llyow>:?
<gwyllyow> "vagrants", <kellyow> "cells", <qwyllyow> "quills", <styllyow> "beams".


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: Daniel Prohaska 
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 11:22 AM
To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' 
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kal revisited


The various dictionaries give <cal, -yow> (UCR), <kalgh, -yow> (KK), <cal, caliaw> (RLC), so it seems there is a consensus for the plural suffix to be <-yow> rather than <-ow>. SWF with a short vowel would need to write <kall, kallyow> {call, callyow}.

Dan

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ajtrim at msn.com
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 1:27 AM

 

I would currently write <call> sg., <callow> pl. and <callek> adj.

There may be a case for <kellys> pl.

 

(Is this really the same word as <kell> sg., <kellow> pl. and <dewgell> dl. for the nearby parts?)

 

In my opinion, <kall> ~ <call> is best for the SWF.

I would ignore <kalgh>, and I really dislike <kal' >.

 

The SWF does not, of course, allow diacritical marks.

The best solution for KS may well be <c?l> sg. and <calow> pl..

Regards,

Andrew J. Trim

 

 

 

From: Daniel Prohaska 

Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 3:51 PM

To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' 

Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kal revisited

 

 

I?ve now spelt <kall, call>, because I think it contains a short vowel. I have mentioned reconstructed *kalgh as a possible older form in the entry, but not recommended it as a main entry. Is this feasible? How about the plural?

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Weatherhill
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:16 PM

 

I forgot to add that the word is cal in place names, e.g. Calvadnack  

(<cal vannek), Colvannick (<cal vannek), Carrallack (< ker gallek),  

Colvenner (2 exx.) (<cal veneth).

 

The first example has: <cal>, 5 times from the available spellings,  

all 14th/15th century.

 

The second has: <cal> 8 times; <kal> twice; <col> once.

 

The third has: <-gallek> once; <-kallek> once, <-allek> once and  

<allack> once.

 

The fourth has, for the Cury site: <cal> once and <kal> once and,

                               for the Wendron site: <cal> once.

 

Not even a hint of a <-gh> ending, so, put with Nicholas's textual  

examples, that makes 28 historic examples of the word with no sign of  

<-gh>, against none that have such an ending.  Ergo, George's spelling  

is a fiction and is not Cornish.  The SWF <kalgh, calgh, kal', cal'>  

are therefore incorrect and should be <kal, cal> only.

 

Craig

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From callanish at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 14:23:59 2009
From: callanish at gmail.com (Thomas Leigh)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:23:59 -0500
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS7C7FBC19E273D3381BA98CCE10@phx.gbl>
References: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<COL115-DS7C7FBC19E273D3381BA98CCE10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <cd77e3c40901050623p78e8d45eif02c035b22051540@mail.gmail.com>

Deal all,

Forgive me if I'm slow on the uptake, but is there any sort of rule for KS
regarding writing a short vowel followed by two consonants (e.g. *call*)
versus followed by one with shortness marked with the grave accent (e.g. *
c?l*)? What makes one preferable to the other? I mean in general, not just
with this one particular word.

Thanks,

Thomas
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From callanish at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 14:24:52 2009
From: callanish at gmail.com (Thomas Leigh)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 09:24:52 -0500
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <cd77e3c40901050623p78e8d45eif02c035b22051540@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<COL115-DS7C7FBC19E273D3381BA98CCE10@phx.gbl>
	<cd77e3c40901050623p78e8d45eif02c035b22051540@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cd77e3c40901050624p21b0cbeci8df0fbcb3ff5d546@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Thomas Leigh <callanish at gmail.com> wrote:

> Deal all,


That should, of course, have been "Dear all". Apologies for the fumbly
fingers this morning!
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From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Mon Jan  5 14:25:51 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:25:51 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <E551834F-543C-4B46-92AD-9D58C23DC20D@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <20090105142555.459D213BC1AA@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

This is for my SWF dictionary, so <c?l> just isn?t an option.

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Everson
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 2:35 PM

 

On 5 Jan 2009, at 11:22, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

 

> The various dictionaries give <cal, -yow> (UCR), <kalgh, -yow> (KK),  

> <cal, caliaw> (RLC), so it seems there is a consensus for the plural  

> suffix to be <-yow> rather than <-ow>. SWF with a short vowel would  

> need to write <kall, kallyow> {call, callyow}.

 

"I will say again, I think that <call> will yield the wrong pronunciation.
<c?l> pl <calyow> is preferable (and more authentic) for this word.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com"

 

 

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From everson at evertype.com  Mon Jan  5 15:29:32 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:29:32 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090105142555.459D213BC1AA@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090105142555.459D213BC1AA@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <127E3A15-A91A-4C57-9741-8AA2DBCEF1FB@evertype.com>

On 5 Jan 2009, at 14:25, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> This is for my SWF dictionary, so <c?l> just isn?t an option.

Then use <cal>.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From craig at agantavas.org  Mon Jan  5 15:56:12 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:56:12 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090105142555.459D213BC1AA@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090105142555.459D213BC1AA@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <9ED7E880-2EA6-4489-8281-75B8DACA3600@agantavas.org>

For the SWF dictionary, I'd suggest kal/cal, pl. kalyow/calyow (as the  
current consensus across the orthographies appears to be -yow).

Craig


On 5 Gen 2009, at 14:25, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> This is for my SWF dictionary, so <c?l> just isn?t an option.
> Dan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Everson
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 2:35 PM
>
> On 5 Jan 2009, at 11:22, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
> > The various dictionaries give <cal, -yow> (UCR), <kalgh, -yow> (KK),
> > <cal, caliaw> (RLC), so it seems there is a consensus for the plural
> > suffix to be <-yow> rather than <-ow>. SWF with a short vowel would
> > need to write <kall, kallyow> {call, callyow}.
>
> "I will say again, I think that <call> will yield the wrong  
> pronunciation. <c?l> pl <calyow> is preferable (and more authentic)  
> for this word.
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com"
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Mon Jan  5 16:16:21 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:16:21 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <127E3A15-A91A-4C57-9741-8AA2DBCEF1FB@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <20090105161623.D6F9C13BC09F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

That would suggest [k?:l]. I want [k?l] or possible (on Craig?s place name evidence) [k?l].

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net] On Behalf Of Michael Everson
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 4:30 PM



 

On 5 Jan 2009, at 14:25, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

 

> This is for my SWF dictionary, so <c?l> just isn?t an option.

 

Then use <cal>.

 

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com

 

 

_______________________________________________

Spellyans mailing list

Spellyans at kernowek.net

http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

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From ajtrim at msn.com  Mon Jan  5 16:34:56 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:34:56 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<E551834F-543C-4B46-92AD-9D58C23DC20D@evertype.com>
References: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<E551834F-543C-4B46-92AD-9D58C23DC20D@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS10D277B9AC8166C3B09D7CCCE10@phx.gbl>

I agree that, for KS,  <c?l> is preferable (and more authentic), and less 
likely to be mispronounced than <kall> ~ <call>.
However, the SWF does not allow the grave accent so it has to use some other 
mechanism to show that the vowel is short.
Writing <kall> ~ <call> is about the only way that this can be done.

I thought that the plural would be <callow> but, apparently, there is a <y> 
in it.

The plural that Dan is suggesting is therefore <callyow> but that does not 
look right (to me.)
The plural form <calyow> looks better, and it would still have a short vowel 
(and it would agree with KS.)

Unfortunately, it would seem that the agreed SWF rules are unclear as to 
what should be done.
The rule, as I read it, is that the double letter <ll> is retained:

a)  if some people pronounce the <ll> as extra long or
b)  if some people pronounce the <ll> extra loud or unvoiced, or
c)  if some people would otherwise pronounce the vowel <a> as long (or 
half-long?).

I believe that none of these apply in this case.
The only people who are likely to pronounce the <a> long are those who 
currently write <kalgh> pl.: <kalghyow> where the consonant cluster implies 
a short vowel.
If they do not already know the word, the SWF dictionary tells them that the 
vowel is short (by way of the Tudor IPA transcription, and the lack of a 
specifically Early Middle Cornish IPA transcription).


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael Everson" <everson at evertype.com>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 1:35 PM
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kal revisited

> On 5 Jan 2009, at 11:22, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
>> The various dictionaries give <cal, -yow> (UCR), <kalgh, -yow> (KK), 
>> <cal, caliaw> (RLC), so it seems there is a consensus for the plural 
>> suffix to be <-yow> rather than <-ow>. SWF with a short vowel would  need 
>> to write <kall, kallyow> {call, callyow}.
>
> I will say again, I think that <call> will yield the wrong  pronunciation. 
> <c?l> pl <calyow> is preferable (and more authentic)  for this word.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> 



From j.mills at email.com  Mon Jan  5 15:53:27 2009
From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:53:27 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
Message-ID: <20090105155327.AD08E32757E@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>

Middle Breton has

calch

Catholicon Reference: 872

Latin: veretrum

French: vit le m?bre de generation

So did Breton acquire the final /-x/ or did Cornish and Welsh lose it?

Jon

_____________________________________
Dr. Jon Mills,
School of European Culture and Languages,
University of Kent

-- 
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com

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From s.hewitt at unesco.org  Mon Jan  5 16:43:17 2009
From: s.hewitt at unesco.org (Hewitt, Stephen)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:43:17 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090105155327.AD08E32757E@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <DF54A58A8C30A746BF3B834B4A6BA1AE802558@MAILSERVER-01.hq.int.unesco.org>

Usually -lc'h / -rc'h in Breton but -la / -ra in Welsh go back to forms with an orthographic g, phonetically an approximant /gh/: Breton gwalc'h, Welsh gwala "sufficiency"; Breton erc'h, Welsh eira "snow". The /gh/ was devoiced to /x/ in Breton, but vocalized to /a/ in Welsh.
 
Steve Hewitt

-----Original Message-----
From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net]On Behalf Of Jon Mills
Sent: 05 January 2009 16:53
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kal revisited



Middle Breton has



calch	 	

Catholicon Reference: 872 

Latin: veretrum 

French: vit le m?bre de generation


So did Breton acquire the final /-x/ or did Cornish and Welsh lose it?

Jon


_____________________________________

Dr. Jon Mills,

School of European Culture and Languages,

University of Kent

-- 
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com <http://www.mail.com/Product.aspx> !

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 16:56:01 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:56:01 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090105155327.AD08E32757E@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20090105155327.AD08E32757E@ws1-8.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <89B24118-F685-4E40-B3E4-5FD3DE2D2244@gmail.com>

The Welsh variant caly implies that there was orignally something  
after the l.
Moreover the Irish congener calg 'prick' (of an insect) seems to  
indicate that the original etymon
was *kalg-.
This does not justify the Cornish form *calgh/kalgh. We know that  
Calesvol is the regular form
of 'Excalibur' < *kaledo-bulk- and the equivalent of Welsh dal, Breton  
dalc'h is probaly attested
in po res dal an vor, na oren pana tu, Thuryan, Houlzethas, Gogleth po  
Dihow in Pryce.
In Cornish the sequence /lx/ become /l/ in absolute final.

Nicholas


On 5 Jan 2009, at 15:53, Jon Mills wrote:

> So did Breton acquire the final /-x/ or did Cornish and Welsh lose it?
>

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From christian.semmens at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 16:59:39 2009
From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:59:39 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
	<DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <bad50df40901050859hd58ac15g3dfca896a9e4564e@mail.gmail.com>

Are you sure Carallack is from Ker Gallek? I think my aunt was quietly
horrified to think her house was named after a penis! :-)

Christian

2009/1/3 Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>:
> I forgot to add that the word is cal in place names, e.g. Calvadnack (<cal
> vannek), Colvannick (<cal vannek), Carrallack (< ker gallek), Colvenner (2
> exx.) (<cal veneth).
>
...
> The third has: <-gallek> once; <-kallek> once, <-allek> once and <allack>
> once.
>
...
>
> Craig



From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Mon Jan  5 17:48:24 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:48:24 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <bad50df40901050859hd58ac15g3dfca896a9e4564e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3382B5AB-2947-4D27-8123-6D87E12943E8@gmail.com>
	<DDA31C08-D2CB-415F-8429-F12DB25D388A@agantavas.org>
	<bad50df40901050859hd58ac15g3dfca896a9e4564e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <865A59C7-DCF1-4331-9749-A35DAAC8C4A9@freenet.co.uk>

I think you might have to horrify her, Christian!  The historic  
sequence is as follows:

Karkallek 1302, Cargallek 1302, 1312; Carallek 1410; Carallack 1589

The derivation is most probably ker + callek (lenited).

The "ker" was undoubtedly a Late Iron Age round, or enclosed  
settlement, situated at the near the western foot of Carn Bosavern.   
The actual site of this isn't known, and the field names don't lend  
much help.  I suspect that the round might have been on the site of  
the present Carrallack Farm, although "Carrallack Field" lies 100m S  
of the farm.  The fields here are of a nuclear pattern, the nucleus  
being the farm itself.

The "Callek" (penile, penis-like feature) is undoubtedly Carn Bosavern  
itself, which is the only prominent hill within a mile radius of the  
site.  Viewed from the west, this exhibits a long, comparatively  
gentle and regular slope (now carrying a divided terrace of houses) to  
the 158m (520 ft) summit, which is capped by a low exposed granite tor  
(carn).  The southern slope drops very steeply away from the summit,  
so that (from the west) the hill looks like a wedge lying on its side.

Craig


On 5 Gen 2009, at 16:59, Christian Semmens wrote:

> Are you sure Carallack is from Ker Gallek? I think my aunt was quietly
> horrified to think her house was named after a penis! :-)
>
> Christian
>
> 2009/1/3 Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>:
>> I forgot to add that the word is cal in place names, e.g.  
>> Calvadnack (<cal
>> vannek), Colvannick (<cal vannek), Carrallack (< ker gallek),  
>> Colvenner (2
>> exx.) (<cal veneth).
>>
> ...
>> The third has: <-gallek> once; <-kallek> once, <-allek> once and  
>> <allack>
>> once.
>>
> ...
>>
>> Craig
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan  5 17:50:43 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:50:43 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <E551834F-543C-4B46-92AD-9D58C23DC20D@evertype.com>
References: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<E551834F-543C-4B46-92AD-9D58C23DC20D@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <838D2184-93B8-4B33-9390-12DFCDAE9356@yahoo.co.uk>

On 5 Jan 2009, at 13:35, Michael Everson wrote:
> I will say again, I think that <call> will yield the wrong  
> pronunciation. <c?l> pl <calyow> is preferable (and more authentic)  
> for this word.

Nance doesn't appear to give a plural for 'cal'. But he does give  
these (all with short -a- in the sing.):

bal, pl balow. tin-working
bal, pl balow. plague, pest
dral, pl., dralyow. bit. scrap
gal, pl. galow. villain
pal, pl. palys. mantle, pall
spral, pral, pl. -low. fetter, impediment

So, quite a mixed bunch of plurals for < -al > nouns!

Eddie Foirbeis Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow byner re bons lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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From everson at evertype.com  Mon Jan  5 18:05:03 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:05:03 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090105161623.D6F9C13BC09F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090105161623.D6F9C13BC09F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <686864F3-8736-4FDE-9F27-3C1C1E145C76@evertype.com>

On 5 Jan 2009, at 16:16, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> That would suggest [k?:l].

So? It's just another member of the list of anomalous vowel lengths  
that the SWF doesn't mark.

> I want [k?l] or possible (on Craig?s place name evidence) [k?l].

<al> is already [?:l] and if you wanted [k?l] I think you'd have to  
write <koll>. Where do you get that vowel from Craig's place-name  
evidence, however?

We have rules about a before l and r in KS which so far as I know are  
reflected in the SWF (needs checking). To get [k?l] I think only  
<c?l> would actually do it.

In the short term, Dan, the SWF will give you <calgh> and <cal'>. I  
think innovation on your part to <call> would be going too far.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Mon Jan  5 18:25:54 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:25:54 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <686864F3-8736-4FDE-9F27-3C1C1E145C76@evertype.com>
References: <20090105161623.D6F9C13BC09F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<686864F3-8736-4FDE-9F27-3C1C1E145C76@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <8559F04C-E416-4AF9-9762-F036A88D1B9C@freenet.co.uk>

Well, here's one that will continue to spell the word: cal.  Let it be  
an anomalous spelling - the language will need a few.  I'm uneasy with  
making the orthography overly phonetic/phonemic because we'll only  
find ourselves back in the old trap of regulating it so tightly that  
it strangles the life and soul from the language.

I am beginning to wonder if we might not be going too far with KS.   
For me, Revision 15 was the ideal.  Others might not agree.

I think the Col- of Colvennor, etc. results from the vowel (being  
unstressed in the place-name) reducing to schwa, to the point of  
virtually disappearing.

Craig


On 5 Gen 2009, at 18:05, Michael Everson wrote:

> On 5 Jan 2009, at 16:16, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>
>> That would suggest [k?:l].
>
> So? It's just another member of the list of anomalous vowel lengths  
> that the SWF doesn't mark.
>
>> I want [k?l] or possible (on Craig?s place name evidence) [k?l].
>
> <al> is already [?:l] and if you wanted [k?l] I think you'd have to  
> write <koll>. Where do you get that vowel from Craig's place-name  
> evidence, however?
>
> We have rules about a before l and r in KS which so far as I know  
> are reflected in the SWF (needs checking). To get [k?l] I think only  
> <c?l> would actually do it.
>
> In the short term, Dan, the SWF will give you <calgh> and <cal'>. I  
> think innovation on your part to <call> would be going too far.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From craig at agantavas.org  Mon Jan  5 18:28:01 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:28:01 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <838D2184-93B8-4B33-9390-12DFCDAE9356@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <20090105112224.919EC13BC11F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<E551834F-543C-4B46-92AD-9D58C23DC20D@evertype.com>
	<838D2184-93B8-4B33-9390-12DFCDAE9356@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <47CC82A1-7F58-411E-98AE-35A6B27F11C2@agantavas.org>

Everyone still spells bal as bal, even though its vowel is short.  I  
would hate to see this change which would, I think, be unnecessary.

Craig


On 5 Gen 2009, at 17:50, Eddie Climo wrote:

> On 5 Jan 2009, at 13:35, Michael Everson wrote:
>> I will say again, I think that <call> will yield the wrong  
>> pronunciation. <c?l> pl <calyow> is preferable (and more authentic)  
>> for this word.
>
> Nance doesn't appear to give a plural for 'cal'. But he does give  
> these (all with short -a- in the sing.):
>
> bal, pl balow. tin-working
> bal, pl balow. plague, pest
> dral, pl., dralyow. bit. scrap
> gal, pl. galow. villain
> pal, pl. palys. mantle, pall
> spral, pral, pl. -low. fetter, impediment
>
> So, quite a mixed bunch of plurals for < -al > nouns!
>
> Eddie Foirbeis Climo
> - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> Dres ethom akennow byner re bons lyeshes
> Accenti non multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan  5 19:17:25 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:17:25 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <8559F04C-E416-4AF9-9762-F036A88D1B9C@freenet.co.uk>
References: <20090105161623.D6F9C13BC09F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<686864F3-8736-4FDE-9F27-3C1C1E145C76@evertype.com>
	<8559F04C-E416-4AF9-9762-F036A88D1B9C@freenet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <065E7EF8-0E3C-48A5-B521-CE64A1875485@yahoo.co.uk>

On 5 Jan 2009, at 18:25, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
> Well, here's one that will continue to spell the word: cal.  Let it  
> be an anomalous spelling - the language will need a few.  I'm  
> uneasy with making the orthography overly phonetic/phonemic because  
> we'll only find ourselves back in the old trap of regulating it so  
> tightly that it strangles the life and soul from the language.
>
> I am beginning to wonder if we might not be going too far with KS.   
> For me, Revision 15 was the ideal.  Others might not agree.

I rather agree that Rev.15 was better. And I shan't be writing *call,  
*ball etc.

Eddie Foirbeis Climo
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From ajtrim at msn.com  Mon Jan  5 20:59:37 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 20:59:37 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090105161623.D6F9C13BC09F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at><686864F3-8736-4FDE-9F27-3C1C1E145C76@evertype.com><8559F04C-E416-4AF9-9762-F036A88D1B9C@freenet.co.uk>
	<065E7EF8-0E3C-48A5-B521-CE64A1875485@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <20090105161623.D6F9C13BC09F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at><686864F3-8736-4FDE-9F27-3C1C1E145C76@evertype.com><8559F04C-E416-4AF9-9762-F036A88D1B9C@freenet.co.uk>
	<065E7EF8-0E3C-48A5-B521-CE64A1875485@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS5A9980512E67939A8C9DECCE10@phx.gbl>

Does anyone still have a copy of KS Revision 15?
I would like to refresh my memory of it.
I too think we may be trying to over grease the ointment.


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: Eddie Climo 
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 7:17 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kal revisited


On 5 Jan 2009, at 18:25, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
  Well, here's one that will continue to spell the word: cal.  Let it be an anomalous spelling - the language will need a few.  I'm uneasy with making the orthography overly phonetic/phonemic because we'll only find ourselves back in the old trap of regulating it so tightly that it strangles the life and soul from the language.


  I am beginning to wonder if we might not be going too far with KS.  For me, Revision 15 was the ideal.  Others might not agree.


I rather agree that Rev.15 was better. And I shan't be writing *call, *ball etc.

Eddie Foirbeis Climo


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Mon Jan  5 21:10:15 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:10:15 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <065E7EF8-0E3C-48A5-B521-CE64A1875485@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <20090105161623.D6F9C13BC09F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<686864F3-8736-4FDE-9F27-3C1C1E145C76@evertype.com>
	<8559F04C-E416-4AF9-9762-F036A88D1B9C@freenet.co.uk>
	<065E7EF8-0E3C-48A5-B521-CE64A1875485@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <43BDC399-41DD-4042-BE6C-BC55F0637696@gmail.com>

KS as it is constituted at the moment is close to the SWF Traditional,  
which means
a. that learners of the SWF will find it easy to read
b. that there is a greater chance of eventual revisions of the SWF  
bringing it closer to KS.

It is also incidentally close to Jenner.

It is unlikely that any further change will be made to KS.

I am not wholly happy with some aspects of KS, but it seems to me a  
reasonable compromise and I am
content to write in it and publish in it.

Nicholas


On 5 Jan 2009, at 19:17, Eddie Climo wrote:

> I am beginning to wonder if we might not be going too far with KS.

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From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan  5 22:10:37 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 22:10:37 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS5A9980512E67939A8C9DECCE10@phx.gbl>
References: <20090105161623.D6F9C13BC09F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at><686864F3-8736-4FDE-9F27-3C1C1E145C76@evertype.com><8559F04C-E416-4AF9-9762-F036A88D1B9C@freenet.co.uk>
	<065E7EF8-0E3C-48A5-B521-CE64A1875485@yahoo.co.uk>
	<COL115-DS5A9980512E67939A8C9DECCE10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <355798B4-AC54-434C-9709-F71E910B51DD@yahoo.co.uk>


On 5 Jan 2009, at 20:59, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> Does anyone still have a copy of KS Revision 15?
> I would like to refresh my memory of it.
> I too think we may be trying to over grease the ointment.

Hi Andrew,

I have copies of 15, 15.6 and 15.8, and will email them to you off list.


Eddie Foirbeis Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow byner re bons lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 12:46:37 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:46:37 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
Message-ID: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>

The word for ?pound? is well attested:

myl pvns thotho a our da PC 212
cans puns ha henna yv mur PC 3144
Tan at omma thys x puns BM 1464
kyn teseryas punsov cans BM 2579
prest gueles es x puns tyr BM 2592
iiij cans puns gyllyth speyna BM 2820
py lues puns a yl bos anethy grueys BM 2829-30
Awos myl buns ny vynsen the welas, ru?n oferen! BK 1211-12
moy eas myllyow a bynsow CW 740
Ena chei a varginiaz rag trei penz an vlethan Gubber JCH ?4 NBoson
e vaster thesguethaz dotha an trei penz JCH ? 5 NBoson
e vaster a droaz an trei penz JCH ? 7 NBoson
e vaster droaz an trei penz JCH ? 9 NBoson
Ha an chei woraz an naw penz en Dezan JCH ? 12 NBoson
rag trei penz an vledhan guber JCH ? 4 Lhuyd
e v?ster a dhisguedhaz dhodho an trei penz JCH ? 5 Lhuyd
e v?ster a dhr?z an dri penz JCH ? 7 Lhuyd
e uaster dhr?z an trei penz JCH ? 9 Lhuyd
Ha an dzhei a uyraz an naw penz en dezan JCH ? 12 Lhuyd
ha thera n?u penz en dezan JCH ?46 Lhuyd
PENZ Pryce.
Ry tha st?ner deck pens en blethan Pryce.

The word is spelt either with <u> or <e> or with <y> in the plural  
form <pynsow>. Never in traditional Cornish is it spelt *<peuns> as in  
the SWF. And there is a further problem.
Since English speakers have difficulty with [oe] when short, they tend  
to pronounce <peuns> with a long vowel, yet the vowel is undeniably  
short and [poe:nz] sounds very wrong.
Jenner wrote <pens>. Nance wrote <puns>, plural <punsow> and  
pronounced them [pinz], [pinzow].
In view of the plural form <bynsow> in CW, it seems quite possible  
that this word had two
pronunciations [pinz] and [penz].
In order to avoid *[poe:nz] we shoud write <pens> in KS, with either  
<pensow> or <pynsow> in the plural.

Nicholas
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From craig at agantavas.org  Tue Jan  6 13:32:06 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:32:06 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>

Harking back to a previous enquiry, has no one any idea of the  
derivation of the place-name element 'musyn' which appears to be a  
stream name?

Craig



On 6 Gen 2009, at 12:46, nicholas williams wrote:

> The word for ?pound? is well attested:
>
> myl pvns thotho a our da PC 212
> cans puns ha henna yv mur PC 3144
> Tan at omma thys x puns BM 1464
> kyn teseryas punsov cans BM 2579
> prest gueles es x puns tyr BM 2592
> iiij cans puns gyllyth speyna BM 2820
> py lues puns a yl bos anethy grueys BM 2829-30
> Awos myl buns ny vynsen the welas, ru?n oferen! BK 1211-12
> moy eas myllyow a bynsow CW 740
> Ena chei a varginiaz rag trei penz an vlethan Gubber JCH ?4 NBoson
> e vaster thesguethaz dotha an trei penz JCH ? 5 NBoson
> e vaster a droaz an trei penz JCH ? 7 NBoson
> e vaster droaz an trei penz JCH ? 9 NBoson
> Ha an chei woraz an naw penz en Dezan JCH ? 12 NBoson
> rag trei penz an vledhan guber JCH ? 4 Lhuyd
> e v?ster a dhisguedhaz dhodho an trei penz JCH ? 5 Lhuyd
> e v?ster a dhr?z an dri penz JCH ? 7 Lhuyd
> e uaster dhr?z an trei penz JCH ? 9 Lhuyd
> Ha an dzhei a uyraz an naw penz en dezan JCH ? 12 Lhuyd
> ha thera n?u penz en dezan JCH ?46 Lhuyd
> PENZ Pryce.
> Ry tha st?ner deck pens en blethan Pryce.
>
> The word is spelt either with <u> or <e> or with <y> in the plural  
> form <pynsow>. Never in traditional Cornish is it spelt *<peuns> as  
> in the SWF. And there is a further problem.
> Since English speakers have difficulty with [oe] when short, they  
> tend to pronounce <peuns> with a long vowel, yet the vowel is  
> undeniably short and [poe:nz] sounds very wrong.
> Jenner wrote <pens>. Nance wrote <puns>, plural <punsow> and  
> pronounced them [pinz], [pinzow].
> In view of the plural form <bynsow> in CW, it seems quite possible  
> that this word had two
> pronunciations [pinz] and [penz].
> In order to avoid *[poe:nz] we shoud write <pens> in KS, with either  
> <pensow> or <pynsow> in the plural.
>
> Nicholas
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From ray at spyrys.org  Tue Jan  6 19:29:24 2009
From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:29:24 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>

How about 'the little mossy one' ?

On 6 Gen 2009, at 13:32, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> Harking back to a previous enquiry, has no one any idea of the  
> derivation of the place-name element 'musyn' which appears to be a  
> stream name?
>
> Craig
>
>

Ray Chubb

Portreth
Kernow







From njawilliams at gmail.com  Tue Jan  6 21:38:00 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:38:00 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
Message-ID: <BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>

But what do people think about puns/pens?


On 6 Jan 2009, at 19:29, Ray Chubb wrote:

> How about 'the little mossy one' ?




From ajtrim at msn.com  Tue Jan  6 21:51:54 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:51:54 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS223BF6A4045247B2D66F0ACCDE0@phx.gbl>

I don't like <peuns>.
I don't think that we can improve much on Nance here.

<dynar> would of course be "an old penny" ("pence" after a number higher than one).
<penny> would presumably be "a new penny" ("pence" after a number higher than one).
If <puns> is "a pound"; no problem.
If <pens> is "a pound"; confusion!

It would be OK if we were still using <dynnerow> but we have decimalised, and we have now dropped the "new".
So in English, its "pence" or the naughty "pee".
I'm sure that it would have been <pens> or <py> in Cornish too, had Cornish lasted long enough.  

Why not use <sovran> for "pounds"?
(Maybe <ewro> soon!)


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: nicholas williams 
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 12:46 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: [Spellyans] ?Pound? in Cornish


The word for ?pound? is well attested:


myl pvns thotho a our da PC 212
cans puns ha henna yv mur PC 3144
Tan at omma thys x puns BM 1464
kyn teseryas punsov cans BM 2579
prest gueles es x puns tyr BM 2592
iiij cans puns gyllyth speyna BM 2820
py lues puns a yl bos anethy grueys BM 2829-30
Awos myl buns ny vynsen the welas, ru?n oferen! BK 1211-12
moy eas myllyow a bynsow CW 740
Ena chei a varginiaz rag trei penz an vlethan Gubber JCH ?4 NBoson
e vaster thesguethaz dotha an trei penz JCH ? 5 NBoson
e vaster a droaz an trei penz JCH ? 7 NBoson
e vaster droaz an trei penz JCH ? 9 NBoson
Ha an chei woraz an naw penz en Dezan JCH ? 12 NBoson
rag trei penz an vledhan guber JCH ? 4 Lhuyd
e v?ster a dhisguedhaz dhodho an trei penz JCH ? 5 Lhuyd 
e v?ster a dhr?z an dri penz JCH ? 7 Lhuyd
e uaster dhr?z an trei penz JCH ? 9 Lhuyd
Ha an dzhei a uyraz an naw penz en dezan JCH ? 12 Lhuyd
ha thera n?u penz en dezan JCH ?46 Lhuyd
PENZ Pryce.
Ry tha st?ner deck pens en blethan Pryce.


The word is spelt either with <u> or <e> or with <y> in the plural form <pynsow>. Never in traditional Cornish is it spelt *<peuns> as in the SWF. And there is a further problem.
Since English speakers have difficulty with [oe] when short, they tend to pronounce <peuns> with a long vowel, yet the vowel is undeniably short and [poe:nz] sounds very wrong.
Jenner wrote <pens>. Nance wrote <puns>, plural <punsow> and pronounced them [pinz], [pinzow].
In view of the plural form <bynsow> in CW, it seems quite possible that this word had two
pronunciations [pinz] and [penz]. 
In order to avoid *[poe:nz] we shoud write <pens> in KS, with either <pensow> or <pynsow> in the plural.


Nicholas


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From everson at evertype.com  Tue Jan  6 23:04:02 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:04:02 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
	<BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2A9E1C04-74DD-421A-A3A4-0B4206D46891@evertype.com>

On 6 Jan 2009, at 21:38, nicholas williams wrote:

> But what do people think about puns/pens?

I think pens pl. pynsow makes good sense.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From ajtrim at msn.com  Tue Jan  6 23:06:03 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:06:03 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS2256AA80CFD574878021F9CCDE0@phx.gbl>

Craig,

Sorry. On this occasion, I don't even have one of my usual wild ideas.
Does French <muser> "to loiter" help?
Does it help if you pronounce it midgin?
I think mousy means "smelly" or "stained"

Regards,

Andrew J. Trim



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 1:32 PM
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] ?Pound? in Cornish

> Harking back to a previous enquiry, has no one any idea of the  derivation 
> of the place-name element 'musyn' which appears to be a  stream name?
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 6 Gen 2009, at 12:46, nicholas williams wrote:
>
>> The word for ?pound? is well attested:
>>
>> myl pvns thotho a our da PC 212
>> cans puns ha henna yv mur PC 3144
>> Tan at omma thys x puns BM 1464
>> kyn teseryas punsov cans BM 2579
>> prest gueles es x puns tyr BM 2592
>> iiij cans puns gyllyth speyna BM 2820
>> py lues puns a yl bos anethy grueys BM 2829-30
>> Awos myl buns ny vynsen the welas, ru?n oferen! BK 1211-12
>> moy eas myllyow a bynsow CW 740
>> Ena chei a varginiaz rag trei penz an vlethan Gubber JCH ?4 NBoson
>> e vaster thesguethaz dotha an trei penz JCH ? 5 NBoson
>> e vaster a droaz an trei penz JCH ? 7 NBoson
>> e vaster droaz an trei penz JCH ? 9 NBoson
>> Ha an chei woraz an naw penz en Dezan JCH ? 12 NBoson
>> rag trei penz an vledhan guber JCH ? 4 Lhuyd
>> e v?ster a dhisguedhaz dhodho an trei penz JCH ? 5 Lhuyd
>> e v?ster a dhr?z an dri penz JCH ? 7 Lhuyd
>> e uaster dhr?z an trei penz JCH ? 9 Lhuyd
>> Ha an dzhei a uyraz an naw penz en dezan JCH ? 12 Lhuyd
>> ha thera n?u penz en dezan JCH ?46 Lhuyd
>> PENZ Pryce.
>> Ry tha st?ner deck pens en blethan Pryce.
>>
>> The word is spelt either with <u> or <e> or with <y> in the plural  form 
>> <pynsow>. Never in traditional Cornish is it spelt *<peuns> as  in the 
>> SWF. And there is a further problem.
>> Since English speakers have difficulty with [oe] when short, they  tend 
>> to pronounce <peuns> with a long vowel, yet the vowel is  undeniably 
>> short and [poe:nz] sounds very wrong.
>> Jenner wrote <pens>. Nance wrote <puns>, plural <punsow> and  pronounced 
>> them [pinz], [pinzow].
>> In view of the plural form <bynsow> in CW, it seems quite possible  that 
>> this word had two
>> pronunciations [pinz] and [penz].
>> In order to avoid *[poe:nz] we shoud write <pens> in KS, with either 
>> <pensow> or <pynsow> in the plural.
>>
>> Nicholas
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> 



From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Tue Jan  6 23:07:03 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:07:03 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <686864F3-8736-4FDE-9F27-3C1C1E145C76@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <20090106230704.4B9B213BC0CB@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

That's good advice. I will put <kal', cal'> in as my main entry and add
*kalgh with anasterisk in green as a possible early Middle Cornish
(reconstructed) form. I give the plural <kalyow, calyow> and add *kalhyow in
green.

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Everson
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 7:05 PM



"In the short term, Dan, the SWF will give you <calgh> and <cal'>. I think
innovation on your part to <call> would be going too far.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com"

 

 

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From ajtrim at msn.com  Tue Jan  6 23:54:53 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:54:53 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] kal revisited
In-Reply-To: <20090106230704.4B9B213BC0CB@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090106230704.4B9B213BC0CB@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS1407D9E2D1A9D6BA863A5BCCDE0@phx.gbl>

This looks like a good compromise solution that keeps to the spirit of the agreements made for the SWF.
It also distinguishes this word <kal'> ~ <cal'> "penis" from <kall> ~ <call> "crook" and <kall> ~ <call> "tungstate of iron".
If you were mad at someone, and you called them a "liar", it would be useful (in writing, at least) to know quite how far you wanted to take the possible insult.
Perhaps this is the real reason for the <gh>. 


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: Daniel Prohaska 
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 11:07 PM
To: 'Standard Cornish discussion list' 
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] kal revisited


That's good advice. I will put <kal', cal'> in as my main entry and add *kalgh with anasterisk in green as a possible early Middle Cornish (reconstructed) form. I give the plural <kalyow, calyow> and add *kalhyow in green.

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Everson
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 7:05 PM



"In the short term, Dan, the SWF will give you <calgh> and <cal'>. I think innovation on your part to <call> would be going too far.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com"

 

 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Jan  6 23:57:15 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:57:15 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS223BF6A4045247B2D66F0ACCDE0@phx.gbl>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS223BF6A4045247B2D66F0ACCDE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BE2F8589-F114-45A2-9630-94808E69935F@yahoo.co.uk>

On 6 Jan 2009, at 21:51, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
> I don't like <peuns>.
> I don't think that we can improve much on Nance here.

Agreed. 'pens' is too confusing with English 'pence'. It has to be  
'puns'.

As for '(new) pence', I've heard people calling them 'dynar' in  
Cornish. This older word is still perfectly serviceable for the new  
currency, and if there were some possibility of confusion between  
pre- and post-decimal pennies (I can't imagine how, off the top of my  
head!), then it'd be easy enough to qualify them as 'noweth' or 'coth.

Anyway, there are far too many of the old terms for money that have  
already become obsolete with the disappearance of the old coinage  
(hanter-demma, ferdhyn, demma, whednar, sols, hanter curun, curun,  
gyny ...); we should conserve what little we have left!

Eddie




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Wed Jan  7 07:29:07 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:29:07 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <BE2F8589-F114-45A2-9630-94808E69935F@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS223BF6A4045247B2D66F0ACCDE0@phx.gbl>
	<BE2F8589-F114-45A2-9630-94808E69935F@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <A7EB9AA3-0AB3-4444-990C-27082D7259D3@gmail.com>

A new penny is deneren nowyth. 'new pence' is dynar nowyth or denerow  
nowyth.

Cf.
eff a dall deneren nov BM 3404

pymp cans dyner monyys PC 505
a try cans dyner ha moy PC 536
an arhans kettep dyner me a's deghes war an luer PC 1514-15
hagh a's guyth kettep dyner PC 1538
Iudas fals a leuerys trehans dynar a vone PA 36a
Syrra, iges recken eu pymp dinar Borde.

y a dall denerov vj BM 3409.

Nicholas

On 6 Jan 2009, at 23:57, Eddie Climo wrote:

> As for '(new) pence', I've heard people calling them 'dynar' in  
> Cornish.

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From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Wed Jan  7 07:55:55 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:55:55 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <A7EB9AA3-0AB3-4444-990C-27082D7259D3@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS223BF6A4045247B2D66F0ACCDE0@phx.gbl>
	<BE2F8589-F114-45A2-9630-94808E69935F@yahoo.co.uk>
	<A7EB9AA3-0AB3-4444-990C-27082D7259D3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A753701E-2CBA-408A-82F4-A6B60B3FD610@freenet.co.uk>

Dyner/dynar also turns up as a place name element.

"De Narrow Zawn", close to Botallack Mine, is Sawan Dynarow (which  
makes sense as this zawn is eroded into a particularly rich vein of  
tin).

A mine in St Agnes parish, mentioned in 1708, was Trydinner; another  
mine in St Agnes, also recorded in 1708, was Wheal an Dinner.  A field  
name in Wendron (Tithe Apportionment) is Padge Dinner (pajer dynar).

Some might remember that 7 or 8 years ago, I designed a banknote for  
the Cornish Stannary Parliament:  this was a 500 dynar note (fiver).   
I think there's a line in one of the Miracle Plays about someone owing  
the sum of 500 dynar.

Craig


On 7 Gen 2009, at 07:29, nicholas williams wrote:

> A new penny is deneren nowyth. 'new pence' is dynar nowyth or  
> denerow nowyth.
>
> Cf.
> eff a dall deneren nov BM 3404
>
> pymp cans dyner monyys PC 505
> a try cans dyner ha moy PC 536
> an arhans kettep dyner me a's deghes war an luer PC 1514-15
> hagh a's guyth kettep dyner PC 1538
> Iudas fals a leuerys trehans dynar a vone PA 36a
> Syrra, iges recken eu pymp dinar Borde.
>
> y a dall denerov vj BM 3409.
>
> Nicholas
>
> On 6 Jan 2009, at 23:57, Eddie Climo wrote:
>
>> As for '(new) pence', I've heard people calling them 'dynar' in  
>> Cornish.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Wed Jan  7 08:14:20 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:14:20 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <A753701E-2CBA-408A-82F4-A6B60B3FD610@freenet.co.uk>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS223BF6A4045247B2D66F0ACCDE0@phx.gbl>
	<BE2F8589-F114-45A2-9630-94808E69935F@yahoo.co.uk>
	<A7EB9AA3-0AB3-4444-990C-27082D7259D3@gmail.com>
	<A753701E-2CBA-408A-82F4-A6B60B3FD610@freenet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <87E82A1F-2A38-48AF-8744-5EDADE99DB3A@gmail.com>

kyns y vn teller yn beys
dev kendoner yth ege
the vn dettor me a grys
an nyl thotho a delle
pymp cans dyner monyys
ha hanter cans y gyle
y's gavas thethe keffrys

[Once somewhere in the world
there were two debtors
owing to the same creditor.
One of them owed 500 pence
and the other 50 pence.
He forgave them both equally]
PC 501-07.

This is based on St Luke 7: 41-42:
There was a certain creditor which had two debtors:
the one owed five hundred pence,
and the other fifty.
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both.

Though the author of Passio Christi almost certainly knew the passage  
from the Vulgate:

duo debitores erant cuidam feneratori
unus debebat denarios quingentos
alius quinquaginta
non habentibus illis unde redderent donavit utrisque.

Nicholas



On 7 Jan 2009, at 07:55, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> I think there's a line in one of the Miracle Plays about someone  
> owing the sum of 500 dynar.

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From j.mills at email.com  Wed Jan  7 08:42:41 2009
From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:42:41 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?iso-8859-1?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
Message-ID: <20090107084241.3D2DBBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>

It is unfortunate that we do not use <Z>. We could then write 'penz' (pound) and 'pens' (pence).
Jon

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eddie Climo" <eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk>
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] ?Pound? in Cornish
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:57:15 +0000
> 
> 
> On 6 Jan 2009, at 21:51, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
> > I don't like <peuns>.
> > I don't think that we can improve much on Nance here.
> 
> Agreed. 'pens' is too confusing with English 'pence'. It has to be  'puns'.
> 
> As for '(new) pence', I've heard people calling them 'dynar' in  
> Cornish. This older word is still perfectly serviceable for the new 
>   currency, and if there were some possibility of confusion between 
>   pre- and post-decimal pennies (I can't imagine how, off the top 
> of my  head!), then it'd be easy enough to qualify them as 'noweth' 
> or 'coth.
> 
> Anyway, there are far too many of the old terms for money that have 
>   already become obsolete with the disappearance of the old coinage 
>   (hanter-demma, ferdhyn, demma, whednar, sols, hanter curun, 
> curun,  gyny ...); we should conserve what little we have left!
> 
> Eddie
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

>



_____________________________________
Dr. Jon Mills,
School of European Culture and Languages,
University of Kent


-- 
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com




From everson at evertype.com  Wed Jan  7 09:18:39 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 09:18:39 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?iso-8859-1?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <20090107084241.3D2DBBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>
References: <20090107084241.3D2DBBE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>
Message-ID: <FEE2D1B7-43EF-496C-9BDB-995C313D2670@evertype.com>

On 7 Jan 2009, at 08:42, Jon Mills wrote:

> It is unfortunate that we do not use <Z>. We could then write  
> 'penz' (pound) and 'pens' (pence).

We use <z>. We've not used it finally.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From craig at agantavas.org  Wed Jan  7 11:31:47 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:31:47 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <87E82A1F-2A38-48AF-8744-5EDADE99DB3A@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS223BF6A4045247B2D66F0ACCDE0@phx.gbl>
	<BE2F8589-F114-45A2-9630-94808E69935F@yahoo.co.uk>
	<A7EB9AA3-0AB3-4444-990C-27082D7259D3@gmail.com>
	<A753701E-2CBA-408A-82F4-A6B60B3FD610@freenet.co.uk>
	<87E82A1F-2A38-48AF-8744-5EDADE99DB3A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A22BAA9-84C4-4FE9-87F2-9800D46D1B0A@agantavas.org>

That's the one, Nicholas.  Thank you.

Craig


On 7 Gen 2009, at 08:14, nicholas williams wrote:

> kyns y vn teller yn beys
> dev kendoner yth ege
> the vn dettor me a grys
> an nyl thotho a delle
> pymp cans dyner monyys
> ha hanter cans y gyle
> y's gavas thethe keffrys
>
> [Once somewhere in the world
> there were two debtors
> owing to the same creditor.
> One of them owed 500 pence
> and the other 50 pence.
> He forgave them both equally]
> PC 501-07.
>
> This is based on St Luke 7: 41-42:
> There was a certain creditor which had two debtors:
> the one owed five hundred pence,
> and the other fifty.
> And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both.
>
> Though the author of Passio Christi almost certainly knew the  
> passage from the Vulgate:
>
> duo debitores erant cuidam feneratori
> unus debebat denarios quingentos
> alius quinquaginta
> non habentibus illis unde redderent donavit utrisque.
>
> Nicholas
>
>
>
> On 7 Jan 2009, at 07:55, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>> I think there's a line in one of the Miracle Plays about someone  
>> owing the sum of 500 dynar.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From craig at agantavas.org  Wed Jan  7 12:18:35 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:18:35 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <87E82A1F-2A38-48AF-8744-5EDADE99DB3A@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS223BF6A4045247B2D66F0ACCDE0@phx.gbl>
	<BE2F8589-F114-45A2-9630-94808E69935F@yahoo.co.uk>
	<A7EB9AA3-0AB3-4444-990C-27082D7259D3@gmail.com>
	<A753701E-2CBA-408A-82F4-A6B60B3FD610@freenet.co.uk>
	<87E82A1F-2A38-48AF-8744-5EDADE99DB3A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DF61E8C6-3FFA-4984-8154-224B65613B95@agantavas.org>

I wish that today's taxman could be forgiving as this biblical  
creditor!!!!

A financially struggling Craig


On 7 Gen 2009, at 08:14, nicholas williams wrote:

> kyns y vn teller yn beys
> dev kendoner yth ege
> the vn dettor me a grys
> an nyl thotho a delle
> pymp cans dyner monyys
> ha hanter cans y gyle
> y's gavas thethe keffrys
>
> [Once somewhere in the world
> there were two debtors
> owing to the same creditor.
> One of them owed 500 pence
> and the other 50 pence.
> He forgave them both equally]
> PC 501-07.
>
> This is based on St Luke 7: 41-42:
> There was a certain creditor which had two debtors:
> the one owed five hundred pence,
> and the other fifty.
> And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both.
>
> Though the author of Passio Christi almost certainly knew the  
> passage from the Vulgate:
>
> duo debitores erant cuidam feneratori
> unus debebat denarios quingentos
> alius quinquaginta
> non habentibus illis unde redderent donavit utrisque.
>
> Nicholas
>
>
>
> On 7 Jan 2009, at 07:55, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>> I think there's a line in one of the Miracle Plays about someone  
>> owing the sum of 500 dynar.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From ray at spyrys.org  Wed Jan  7 14:22:31 2009
From: ray at spyrys.org (Ray Chubb)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:22:31 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
	<BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3585EA72-FB8E-4378-BAA2-838F277CAB9D@spyrys.org>

I have always followed Nance in this and it seems I am not incorrect  
to do so.

On 6 Gen 2009, at 21:38, nicholas williams wrote:

> But what do people think about puns/pens?
>
>
> On 6 Jan 2009, at 19:29, Ray Chubb wrote:
>
>> How about 'the little mossy one' ?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

Ray Chubb

Portreth
Kernow







From njawilliams at gmail.com  Wed Jan  7 16:58:23 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 16:58:23 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
Message-ID: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>

The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the SWF.
Inter alia it says:

Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
ha na rugo? hwei gorra ?gas hanow
hwath, me ?venja drei hedna dhe ?gas
kov eneth arta, leverel dhew? fatel
vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.

How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
What are the rules?

Nicholas
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From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Wed Jan  7 18:32:39 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:32:39 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
References: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14883D8D-DBD5-40FB-9608-DE15BF7002EA@freenet.co.uk>

It's incorrect, anyway:  I recommended Lostwydhyel/Lostwedhyel  
(preference to the former because the -e- alternation is much less  
apparent in historic forms of the name).

The qualifier is gwydh/gwedh+yel suffix = "place of (or district of)  
trees" (Generic is lost, "tail", i.e. "tail-end of a place of trees".

Craig


On 7 Gen 2009, at 16:58, nicholas williams wrote:

> The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the SWF.
> Inter alia it says:
>
> Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
> ha na rugo? hwei gorra ?gas hanow
> hwath, me ?venja drei hedna dhe ?gas
> kov eneth arta, leverel dhew? fatel
> vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
> jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.
>
> How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
> What are the rules?
>
> Nicholas
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From ajtrim at msn.com  Wed Jan  7 22:28:06 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 22:28:06 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
References: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS8FB74055FC5B238D9651FCCDF0@phx.gbl>

I don't know the answer.
I did not think that there were any rules for place names.
Is anyone discussing place names yet?

By the way, the original MAGA text used straight quotes so the leading apostrophes of the Late Cornish variants looked OK.
If you are typing Late Cornish variant SWF, it's better to turn off smart quotes.


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim 




From: nicholas williams 
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:58 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter


The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the SWF. 
Inter alia it says:


Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
ha na rugo? hwei gorra ?gas hanow
hwath, me ?venja drei hedna dhe ?gas
kov eneth arta, leverel dhew? fatel
vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.


How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
What are the rules? 


Nicholas


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From everson at evertype.com  Wed Jan  7 22:32:49 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 22:32:49 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
References: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91530D78-BA73-4890-B009-29DC83B82C7F@evertype.com>

On 7 Jan 2009, at 16:58, nicholas williams wrote:

> How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
> What are the rules?

I think they have misspelled that, since as far as I know ie/ye are  
the same in SWF as KS. We write Lostwydhyel.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From craig at agantavas.org  Thu Jan  8 09:33:22 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:33:22 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS8FB74055FC5B238D9651FCCDF0@phx.gbl>
References: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS8FB74055FC5B238D9651FCCDF0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4ED99C2B-B8B9-4DB4-AE7F-B401894AD350@agantavas.org>

Several months ago, Andrew, Maga paid me to produce a discussion  
document, with a recommendation list for place-names.  The list that I  
produced contained about 3,500 toponyms, from towns and villages, to  
topographic features, and archaeological sites.  It has yet to see the  
light of day and one wonders why.

What I endeavoured to do was to balance the linguistic demands with  
preserving the historical integrity of each name (not always an easy  
task).  As both the Commission and Jenefer herself has said, this was  
best achieved by using traditional graphs so I set out to adhere to  
SWF/T as closely as I could.  This I almost achieved but felt  
compelled to reintroduce the <au> graph, as the SWF alternative simply  
did not work with the names.

There is bound to be opposition from CLB members, because I heavily  
criticised their place-name recommendation booklet in "Form and  
Content".  However, their recommendations were all about language (in  
this case KK), with no regard to the history of the names.  For  
example, the CLB simply translated the modern English names of St  
Columb Major and Minor into Cornish, producing Sen Kolomm Veur and Sen  
Kolomm Vyghan.  Had they done any historical research, they'd have  
found the genuine Cornish names for both: Plugolom and Colom  
respectively.

I am happy to send a copy of the document to anyone who'd like to see  
it.

Craig



On 7 Gen 2009, at 22:28, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> I don't know the answer.
> I did not think that there were any rules for place names.
> Is anyone discussing place names yet?
>
> By the way, the original MAGA text used straight quotes so the  
> leading apostrophes of the Late Cornish variants looked OK.
> If you are typing Late Cornish variant SWF, it's better to turn off  
> smart quotes.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew J. Trim
>
>
>
> From: nicholas williams
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:58 PM
> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
> Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>
> The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the SWF.
> Inter alia it says:
>
> Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
> ha na rugo? hwei gorra ?gas hanow
> hwath, me ?venja drei hedna dhe ?gas
> kov eneth arta, leverel dhew? fatel
> vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
> jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.
>
> How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
> What are the rules?
>
> Nicholas
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 10:03:40 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:03:40 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <4ED99C2B-B8B9-4DB4-AE7F-B401894AD350@agantavas.org>
References: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS8FB74055FC5B238D9651FCCDF0@phx.gbl>
	<4ED99C2B-B8B9-4DB4-AE7F-B401894AD350@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <0EF08BEE-E6C6-4F1E-865C-45FD8B74CD38@gmail.com>

Please send a copy to me.

Nicholas

On 8 Jan 2009, at 09:33, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> I am happy to send a copy of the document to anyone who'd like to  
> see it.




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 10:28:50 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:28:50 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <91530D78-BA73-4890-B009-29DC83B82C7F@evertype.com>
References: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
	<91530D78-BA73-4890-B009-29DC83B82C7F@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <4C9151C2-1F98-4610-9D26-51AC3A060E25@gmail.com>

I notice from the list of An Gannas place names (1995) produced by  
Graham Sandercock and others, that Lostwithiel is Cornicised by the  
editors as <Lostwydhyel>.
The spelling <Lostwydhiel> then in the Maga Newsletter is a mistake,  
not a result of any deliberate policy.

Nicholas

On 7 Jan 2009, at 22:32, Michael Everson wrote:

> We write Lostwydhyel.

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From clive.baker at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 15:17:41 2009
From: clive.baker at gmail.com (Clive Baker)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:17:41 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <3585EA72-FB8E-4378-BAA2-838F277CAB9D@spyrys.org>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
	<BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
	<3585EA72-FB8E-4378-BAA2-838F277CAB9D@spyrys.org>
Message-ID: <a4b8784b0901080717xdd8d3f5h840517aaf1c2b48c@mail.gmail.com>

I much prefer "puns " to "pens
regards to all...(my god.. he spoke!!)
Clive

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Ray Chubb <ray at spyrys.org> wrote:

> I have always followed Nance in this and it seems I am not incorrect to do
> so.
>
>
> On 6 Gen 2009, at 21:38, nicholas williams wrote:
>
> But what do people think about puns/pens?
>>
>>
>> On 6 Jan 2009, at 19:29, Ray Chubb wrote:
>>
>> How about 'the little mossy one' ?
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>
> Ray Chubb
>
> Portreth
> Kernow
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
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From christian.semmens at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 15:52:29 2009
From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:52:29 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <4ED99C2B-B8B9-4DB4-AE7F-B401894AD350@agantavas.org>
References: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS8FB74055FC5B238D9651FCCDF0@phx.gbl>
	<4ED99C2B-B8B9-4DB4-AE7F-B401894AD350@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <bad50df40901080752i163551d0t35fbd416622a6ea2@mail.gmail.com>

Could you please send on to me.

Thanks

Christian

2009/1/8 Craig Weatherhill <craig at agantavas.org>:
> Several months ago, Andrew, Maga paid me to produce a discussion document,
> with a recommendation list for place-names.  The list that I produced
> contained about 3,500 toponyms, from towns and villages, to topographic
> features, and archaeological sites.  It has yet to see the light of day and
> one wonders why.
>
> What I endeavoured to do was to balance the linguistic demands with
> preserving the historical integrity of each name (not always an easy task).
>  As both the Commission and Jenefer herself has said, this was best achieved
> by using traditional graphs so I set out to adhere to SWF/T as closely as I
> could.  This I almost achieved but felt compelled to reintroduce the <au>
> graph, as the SWF alternative simply did not work with the names.
>
> There is bound to be opposition from CLB members, because I heavily
> criticised their place-name recommendation booklet in "Form and Content".
>  However, their recommendations were all about language (in this case KK),
> with no regard to the history of the names.  For example, the CLB simply
> translated the modern English names of St Columb Major and Minor into
> Cornish, producing Sen Kolomm Veur and Sen Kolomm Vyghan.  Had they done any
> historical research, they'd have found the genuine Cornish names for both:
> Plugolom and Colom respectively.
>
> I am happy to send a copy of the document to anyone who'd like to see it.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 7 Gen 2009, at 22:28, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know the answer.
>> I did not think that there were any rules for place names.
>> Is anyone discussing place names yet?
>>
>> By the way, the original MAGA text used straight quotes so the leading
>> apostrophes of the Late Cornish variants looked OK.
>> If you are typing Late Cornish variant SWF, it's better to turn off smart
>> quotes.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Andrew J. Trim
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nicholas williams
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:58 PM
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>> Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>>
>> The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the SWF.
>> Inter alia it says:
>>
>> Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
>> ha na rugo' hwei gorra 'gas hanow
>> hwath, me 'venja drei hedna dhe 'gas
>> kov eneth arta, leverel dhew' fatel
>> vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
>> jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.
>>
>> How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
>> What are the rules?
>>
>> Nicholas
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>



From ajtrim at msn.com  Thu Jan  8 16:44:31 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:44:31 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com><COL115-DS8FB74055FC5B238D9651FCCDF0@phx.gbl>
	<4ED99C2B-B8B9-4DB4-AE7F-B401894AD350@agantavas.org>
References: <F9B905B8-2D61-4609-B07C-FC7C0F2DB874@gmail.com><COL115-DS8FB74055FC5B238D9651FCCDF0@phx.gbl>
	<4ED99C2B-B8B9-4DB4-AE7F-B401894AD350@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS1807633EFF7323240F128CCCDC0@phx.gbl>

Craig,

That is very interesting.
It was partly the place names that got me interested in Cornish in the first 
place.
I think they are important to any language revival.
Place names are highly visual "advertisements" showing that the language 
exists.
Yes, I would like a copy of your place name document.


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Craig Weatherhill" <craig at agantavas.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 9:33 AM
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter

> Several months ago, Andrew, Maga paid me to produce a discussion 
> document, with a recommendation list for place-names.  The list that I 
> produced contained about 3,500 toponyms, from towns and villages, to 
> topographic features, and archaeological sites.  It has yet to see the 
> light of day and one wonders why.
>
> What I endeavoured to do was to balance the linguistic demands with 
> preserving the historical integrity of each name (not always an easy 
> task).  As both the Commission and Jenefer herself has said, this was 
> best achieved by using traditional graphs so I set out to adhere to  SWF/T 
> as closely as I could.  This I almost achieved but felt  compelled to 
> reintroduce the <au> graph, as the SWF alternative simply  did not work 
> with the names.
>
> There is bound to be opposition from CLB members, because I heavily 
> criticised their place-name recommendation booklet in "Form and  Content". 
> However, their recommendations were all about language (in  this case KK), 
> with no regard to the history of the names.  For  example, the CLB simply 
> translated the modern English names of St  Columb Major and Minor into 
> Cornish, producing Sen Kolomm Veur and Sen  Kolomm Vyghan.  Had they done 
> any historical research, they'd have  found the genuine Cornish names for 
> both: Plugolom and Colom  respectively.
>
> I am happy to send a copy of the document to anyone who'd like to see  it.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> On 7 Gen 2009, at 22:28, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know the answer.
>> I did not think that there were any rules for place names.
>> Is anyone discussing place names yet?
>>
>> By the way, the original MAGA text used straight quotes so the  leading 
>> apostrophes of the Late Cornish variants looked OK.
>> If you are typing Late Cornish variant SWF, it's better to turn off 
>> smart quotes.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Andrew J. Trim
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nicholas williams
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:58 PM
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>> Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>>
>> The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the SWF.
>> Inter alia it says:
>>
>> Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
>> ha na rugo? hwei gorra ?gas hanow
>> hwath, me ?venja drei hedna dhe ?gas
>> kov eneth arta, leverel dhew? fatel
>> vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
>> jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.
>>
>> How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
>> What are the rules?
>>
>> Nicholas
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
> --
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> 



From janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk  Thu Jan  8 19:02:58 2009
From: janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk (janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:02:58 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
Message-ID: <21024475.1231441378516.JavaMail.root@ps36.mc.tiscali.sys>

No-one can dispute the relevance of place names. I would love a copy, 
please.
Janice

>----Original Message----
>From: craig at agantavas.org
>Date: 08/01/2009 9:33 
>To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"<spellyans at kernowek.net>
>Subj: Re: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>
>Several months ago, Andrew, Maga paid me to produce a discussion  
>document, with a recommendation list for place-names.  The list that 
I  
>produced contained about 3,500 toponyms, from towns and villages, 
to  
>topographic features, and archaeological sites.  It has yet to see 
the  
>light of day and one wonders why.
>
>What I endeavoured to do was to balance the linguistic demands with  
>preserving the historical integrity of each name (not always an 
easy  
>task).  As both the Commission and Jenefer herself has said, this 
was  
>best achieved by using traditional graphs so I set out to adhere to  
>SWF/T as closely as I could.  This I almost achieved but felt  
>compelled to reintroduce the <au> graph, as the SWF alternative 
simply  
>did not work with the names.
>
>There is bound to be opposition from CLB members, because I heavily  
>criticised their place-name recommendation booklet in "Form and  
>Content".  However, their recommendations were all about language 
(in  
>this case KK), with no regard to the history of the names.  For  
>example, the CLB simply translated the modern English names of St  
>Columb Major and Minor into Cornish, producing Sen Kolomm Veur and 
Sen  
>Kolomm Vyghan.  Had they done any historical research, they'd have  
>found the genuine Cornish names for both: Plugolom and Colom  
>respectively.
>
>I am happy to send a copy of the document to anyone who'd like to 
see  
>it.
>
>Craig
>
>
>
>On 7 Gen 2009, at 22:28, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know the answer.
>> I did not think that there were any rules for place names.
>> Is anyone discussing place names yet?
>>
>> By the way, the original MAGA text used straight quotes so the  
>> leading apostrophes of the Late Cornish variants looked OK.
>> If you are typing Late Cornish variant SWF, it's better to turn 
off  
>> smart quotes.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Andrew J. Trim
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nicholas williams
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:58 PM
>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>> Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>>
>> The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the 
SWF.
>> Inter alia it says:
>>
>> Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
>> ha na rugo? hwei gorra ?gas hanow
>> hwath, me ?venja drei hedna dhe ?gas
>> kov eneth arta, leverel dhew? fatel
>> vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
>> jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.
>>
>> How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
>> What are the rules?
>>
>> Nicholas
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>--
>Craig Weatherhill
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Spellyans mailing list
>Spellyans at kernowek.net
>http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>




50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security 

________________________________________________




From craig at agantavas.org  Thu Jan  8 22:01:04 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 22:01:04 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <21024475.1231441378516.JavaMail.root@ps36.mc.tiscali.sys>
References: <21024475.1231441378516.JavaMail.root@ps36.mc.tiscali.sys>
Message-ID: <7D27F862-2CE0-4BA8-B14E-2565F7045AD4@agantavas.org>

Janice,  I tried to send you a copy but the mail service to your  
address failed.

Craig


On 8 Gen 2009, at 19:02, janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk wrote:

> No-one can dispute the relevance of place names. I would love a copy,
> please.
> Janice
>
>> ----Original Message----
>> From: craig at agantavas.org
>> Date: 08/01/2009 9:33
>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"<spellyans at kernowek.net>
>> Subj: Re: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>>
>> Several months ago, Andrew, Maga paid me to produce a discussion
>> document, with a recommendation list for place-names.  The list that
> I
>> produced contained about 3,500 toponyms, from towns and villages,
> to
>> topographic features, and archaeological sites.  It has yet to see
> the
>> light of day and one wonders why.
>>
>> What I endeavoured to do was to balance the linguistic demands with
>> preserving the historical integrity of each name (not always an
> easy
>> task).  As both the Commission and Jenefer herself has said, this
> was
>> best achieved by using traditional graphs so I set out to adhere to
>> SWF/T as closely as I could.  This I almost achieved but felt
>> compelled to reintroduce the <au> graph, as the SWF alternative
> simply
>> did not work with the names.
>>
>> There is bound to be opposition from CLB members, because I heavily
>> criticised their place-name recommendation booklet in "Form and
>> Content".  However, their recommendations were all about language
> (in
>> this case KK), with no regard to the history of the names.  For
>> example, the CLB simply translated the modern English names of St
>> Columb Major and Minor into Cornish, producing Sen Kolomm Veur and
> Sen
>> Kolomm Vyghan.  Had they done any historical research, they'd have
>> found the genuine Cornish names for both: Plugolom and Colom
>> respectively.
>>
>> I am happy to send a copy of the document to anyone who'd like to
> see
>> it.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7 Gen 2009, at 22:28, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know the answer.
>>> I did not think that there were any rules for place names.
>>> Is anyone discussing place names yet?
>>>
>>> By the way, the original MAGA text used straight quotes so the
>>> leading apostrophes of the Late Cornish variants looked OK.
>>> If you are typing Late Cornish variant SWF, it's better to turn
> off
>>> smart quotes.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Andrew J. Trim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: nicholas williams
>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:58 PM
>>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>>> Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>>>
>>> The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the
> SWF.
>>> Inter alia it says:
>>>
>>> Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
>>> ha na rugo? hwei gorra ?gas hanow
>>> hwath, me ?venja drei hedna dhe ?gas
>>> kov eneth arta, leverel dhew? fatel
>>> vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
>>> jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.
>>>
>>> How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
>>> What are the rules?
>>>
>>> Nicholas
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>> --
>> Craig Weatherhill
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>
>
>
>
> 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security
>
> ________________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From dlrt2 at cam.ac.uk  Thu Jan  8 22:25:11 2009
From: dlrt2 at cam.ac.uk (David Trethewey)
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:25:11 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <7D27F862-2CE0-4BA8-B14E-2565F7045AD4@agantavas.org>
References: <21024475.1231441378516.JavaMail.root@ps36.mc.tiscali.sys>
	<7D27F862-2CE0-4BA8-B14E-2565F7045AD4@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <49667D47.6080006@cam.ac.uk>

I could put it up on my website and send the link around if that's easier.

David


Craig Weatherhill wrote:
> Janice,  I tried to send you a copy but the mail service to your 
> address failed.
>
> Craig
>
>
> On 8 Gen 2009, at 19:02, janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk wrote:
>
>> No-one can dispute the relevance of place names. I would love a copy,
>> please.
>> Janice
>>
>>> ----Original Message----
>>> From: craig at agantavas.org
>>> Date: 08/01/2009 9:33
>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"<spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>> Subj: Re: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>>>
>>> Several months ago, Andrew, Maga paid me to produce a discussion
>>> document, with a recommendation list for place-names.  The list that
>> I
>>> produced contained about 3,500 toponyms, from towns and villages,
>> to
>>> topographic features, and archaeological sites.  It has yet to see
>> the
>>> light of day and one wonders why.
>>>
>>> What I endeavoured to do was to balance the linguistic demands with
>>> preserving the historical integrity of each name (not always an
>> easy
>>> task).  As both the Commission and Jenefer herself has said, this
>> was
>>> best achieved by using traditional graphs so I set out to adhere to
>>> SWF/T as closely as I could.  This I almost achieved but felt
>>> compelled to reintroduce the <au> graph, as the SWF alternative
>> simply
>>> did not work with the names.
>>>
>>> There is bound to be opposition from CLB members, because I heavily
>>> criticised their place-name recommendation booklet in "Form and
>>> Content".  However, their recommendations were all about language
>> (in
>>> this case KK), with no regard to the history of the names.  For
>>> example, the CLB simply translated the modern English names of St
>>> Columb Major and Minor into Cornish, producing Sen Kolomm Veur and
>> Sen
>>> Kolomm Vyghan.  Had they done any historical research, they'd have
>>> found the genuine Cornish names for both: Plugolom and Colom
>>> respectively.
>>>
>>> I am happy to send a copy of the document to anyone who'd like to
>> see
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7 Gen 2009, at 22:28, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know the answer.
>>>> I did not think that there were any rules for place names.
>>>> Is anyone discussing place names yet?
>>>>
>>>> By the way, the original MAGA text used straight quotes so the
>>>> leading apostrophes of the Late Cornish variants looked OK.
>>>> If you are typing Late Cornish variant SWF, it's better to turn
>> off
>>>> smart quotes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Andrew J. Trim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: nicholas williams
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:58 PM
>>>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>>>> Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>>>>
>>>> The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the
>> SWF.
>>>> Inter alia it says:
>>>>
>>>> Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
>>>> ha na rugo? hwei gorra ?gas hanow
>>>> hwath, me ?venja drei hedna dhe ?gas
>>>> kov eneth arta, leverel dhew? fatel
>>>> vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
>>>> jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.
>>>>
>>>> How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
>>>> What are the rules?
>>>>
>>>> Nicholas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
> -- 
> Craig Weatherhill
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From everson at evertype.com  Thu Jan  8 22:28:19 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 22:28:19 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <49667D47.6080006@cam.ac.uk>
References: <21024475.1231441378516.JavaMail.root@ps36.mc.tiscali.sys>
	<7D27F862-2CE0-4BA8-B14E-2565F7045AD4@agantavas.org>
	<49667D47.6080006@cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <6FE1F4B4-E239-409A-89C8-CFD9E55DB5EC@evertype.com>

On 8 Jan 2009, at 22:25, David Trethewey wrote:

> I could put it up on my website and send the link around if that's  
> easier.

If this were advisable I would offer to put it on the Spellyans  
website, in a formatted PDF rather than the Word document Craig has it  
in currently.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan  8 22:34:09 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 22:34:09 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <6FE1F4B4-E239-409A-89C8-CFD9E55DB5EC@evertype.com>
References: <21024475.1231441378516.JavaMail.root@ps36.mc.tiscali.sys>
	<7D27F862-2CE0-4BA8-B14E-2565F7045AD4@agantavas.org>
	<49667D47.6080006@cam.ac.uk>
	<6FE1F4B4-E239-409A-89C8-CFD9E55DB5EC@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <45CDBCA6-BC11-47D8-8100-CF5141390114@gmail.com>

A very good idea indeed.

On 8 Jan 2009, at 22:28, Michael Everson wrote:

> If this were advisable I would offer to put it on the Spellyans  
> website, in a formatted PDF rather than the Word document Craig has  
> it in currently.




From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 07:48:48 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 07:48:48 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
In-Reply-To: <49667D47.6080006@cam.ac.uk>
References: <21024475.1231441378516.JavaMail.root@ps36.mc.tiscali.sys>
	<7D27F862-2CE0-4BA8-B14E-2565F7045AD4@agantavas.org>
	<49667D47.6080006@cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <196827F7-4C34-4626-9F72-11FC712B928A@freenet.co.uk>

Thanks for the offer, David but I think it might be wise to restrict  
circulation for the moment and especially while professional  
troublemakers are looking into this list on a daily basis.

Craig

On 8 Gen 2009, at 22:25, David Trethewey wrote:

> I could put it up on my website and send the link around if that's  
> easier.
>
> David
>
>
> Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>> Janice,  I tried to send you a copy but the mail service to your  
>> address failed.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> On 8 Gen 2009, at 19:02, janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk wrote:
>>
>>> No-one can dispute the relevance of place names. I would love a  
>>> copy,
>>> please.
>>> Janice
>>>
>>>> ----Original Message----
>>>> From: craig at agantavas.org
>>>> Date: 08/01/2009 9:33
>>>> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"<spellyans at kernowek.net>
>>>> Subj: Re: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>>>>
>>>> Several months ago, Andrew, Maga paid me to produce a discussion
>>>> document, with a recommendation list for place-names.  The list  
>>>> that
>>> I
>>>> produced contained about 3,500 toponyms, from towns and villages,
>>> to
>>>> topographic features, and archaeological sites.  It has yet to see
>>> the
>>>> light of day and one wonders why.
>>>>
>>>> What I endeavoured to do was to balance the linguistic demands with
>>>> preserving the historical integrity of each name (not always an
>>> easy
>>>> task).  As both the Commission and Jenefer herself has said, this
>>> was
>>>> best achieved by using traditional graphs so I set out to adhere to
>>>> SWF/T as closely as I could.  This I almost achieved but felt
>>>> compelled to reintroduce the <au> graph, as the SWF alternative
>>> simply
>>>> did not work with the names.
>>>>
>>>> There is bound to be opposition from CLB members, because I heavily
>>>> criticised their place-name recommendation booklet in "Form and
>>>> Content".  However, their recommendations were all about language
>>> (in
>>>> this case KK), with no regard to the history of the names.  For
>>>> example, the CLB simply translated the modern English names of St
>>>> Columb Major and Minor into Cornish, producing Sen Kolomm Veur and
>>> Sen
>>>> Kolomm Vyghan.  Had they done any historical research, they'd have
>>>> found the genuine Cornish names for both: Plugolom and Colom
>>>> respectively.
>>>>
>>>> I am happy to send a copy of the document to anyone who'd like to
>>> see
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7 Gen 2009, at 22:28, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know the answer.
>>>>> I did not think that there were any rules for place names.
>>>>> Is anyone discussing place names yet?
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, the original MAGA text used straight quotes so the
>>>>> leading apostrophes of the Late Cornish variants looked OK.
>>>>> If you are typing Late Cornish variant SWF, it's better to turn
>>> off
>>>>> smart quotes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew J. Trim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: nicholas williams
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:58 PM
>>>>> To: Standard Cornish discussion list
>>>>> Subject: [Spellyans] Maga Newsletter
>>>>>
>>>>> The latest newsletter begins in the Late Cornish variant of the
>>> SWF.
>>>>> Inter alia it says:
>>>>>
>>>>> Les hwei a dheu dhe guntelles MAGA,
>>>>> ha na rugo? hwei gorra ?gas hanow
>>>>> hwath, me ?venja drei hedna dhe ?gas
>>>>> kov eneth arta, leverel dhew? fatel
>>>>> vedh synjys yn mis Jenver, an 31vas
>>>>> jorna, yn Lostwydhiel.
>>>>>
>>>>> How are we to know that Lostwydhiel is not stressed Lostwy'dhiel?
>>>>> What are the rules?
>>>>>
>>>>> Nicholas
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Craig Weatherhill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Spellyans mailing list
>>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>> -- 
>> Craig Weatherhill
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From owen.e.cook at gmail.com  Fri Jan  9 20:18:36 2009
From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:18:36 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
	<BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0901091218h6fe093d8tc7f9d64142602c4e@mail.gmail.com>

It seems as though <peuns> would be all right if teachers made sure to
recommend the pronunciation [pEnz], as Nicholas does. I'm not sure
that creating two variants, <puns> and <pens>, really buys us much. Is
this the only word with a short /?/? Surely the same problem would
come up in any other cases along these lines. Euthek, perhaps?

~~Owen

2009/1/6 nicholas williams <njawilliams at gmail.com> rug screfa:
> But what do people think about puns/pens?



From njawilliams at gmail.com  Fri Jan  9 22:58:21 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:58:21 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0901091218h6fe093d8tc7f9d64142602c4e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
	<BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901091218h6fe093d8tc7f9d64142602c4e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D655BF01-FFE5-4184-86EC-46F6406A1B2B@gmail.com>

John Jenkins writes <ethick> and Lhuyd writes <ithik> (often).
It would seem that the word was pronounced either ithik or ethik.
The Middle Cornish spelling is <vthyk> which is attested four times.
I shall continue to write uthyk.

Nicholas

On 9 Jan 2009, at 20:18, Owen Cook wrote:

> Euthek, perhaps

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From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Fri Jan  9 23:36:17 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 23:36:17 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <D655BF01-FFE5-4184-86EC-46F6406A1B2B@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
	<BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901091218h6fe093d8tc7f9d64142602c4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<D655BF01-FFE5-4184-86EC-46F6406A1B2B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E4293E6-4144-4340-829B-314FB8C3949E@freenet.co.uk>

According to Dan's dictionary, the SWF allows for both <euthik> and  
<uthik>, the latter being cited as an exclusively Middle Cornish form).

In reveived Cornish I have never heard anyone pronounce this word as  
anything other than "i-dhik".

Craig.


On 9 Gen 2009, at 22:58, nicholas williams wrote:

> John Jenkins writes <ethick> and Lhuyd writes <ithik> (often).
> It would seem that the word was pronounced either ithik or ethik.
> The Middle Cornish spelling is <vthyk> which is attested four times.
> I shall continue to write uthyk.
>
> Nicholas
>
> On 9 Jan 2009, at 20:18, Owen Cook wrote:
>
>> Euthek, perhaps
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan 10 10:25:48 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:25:48 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <4E4293E6-4144-4340-829B-314FB8C3949E@freenet.co.uk>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
	<BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901091218h6fe093d8tc7f9d64142602c4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<D655BF01-FFE5-4184-86EC-46F6406A1B2B@gmail.com>
	<4E4293E6-4144-4340-829B-314FB8C3949E@freenet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <56E3BAE3-AD41-43A8-AC8E-E2E83AE529B0@gmail.com>

The latest decision, I gather, is <euthik> and a LC variant <ithik>.  
This means that <uthik> is not allowed in the SWF.

Nicholas


On 9 Jan 2009, at 23:36, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> According to Dan's dictionary, the SWF allows for both <euthik> and  
> <uthik>, the latter being cited as an exclusively Middle Cornish  
> form).

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From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Sat Jan 10 10:29:10 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:29:10 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <56E3BAE3-AD41-43A8-AC8E-E2E83AE529B0@gmail.com>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
	<BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901091218h6fe093d8tc7f9d64142602c4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<D655BF01-FFE5-4184-86EC-46F6406A1B2B@gmail.com>
	<4E4293E6-4144-4340-829B-314FB8C3949E@freenet.co.uk>
	<56E3BAE3-AD41-43A8-AC8E-E2E83AE529B0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E20040F2-FD02-48B1-B32F-F577579AA533@freenet.co.uk>

I wonder what the thinking was behind that?  I would imagine that the  
u- form is the most heavily attested.

Craig


On 10 Gen 2009, at 10:25, nicholas williams wrote:

> The latest decision, I gather, is <euthik> and a LC variant <ithik>.  
> This means that <uthik> is not allowed in the SWF.
>
> Nicholas
>
>
> On 9 Jan 2009, at 23:36, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>> According to Dan's dictionary, the SWF allows for both <euthik> and  
>> <uthik>, the latter being cited as an exclusively Middle Cornish  
>> form).
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan 10 11:07:08 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:07:08 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] =?windows-1252?q?=91Pound=92_in_Cornish?=
In-Reply-To: <E20040F2-FD02-48B1-B32F-F577579AA533@freenet.co.uk>
References: <2F94F94B-32C8-48C2-823B-75C8956A6864@gmail.com>
	<705F9FAD-30EC-46D0-9D1D-C3E8D720B79F@agantavas.org>
	<1B02B51E-2B08-4D4E-BD8E-6154BC4701F6@spyrys.org>
	<BB5D5D1F-B087-44D7-A3A2-A7F907EE40F9@gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901091218h6fe093d8tc7f9d64142602c4e@mail.gmail.com>
	<D655BF01-FFE5-4184-86EC-46F6406A1B2B@gmail.com>
	<4E4293E6-4144-4340-829B-314FB8C3949E@freenet.co.uk>
	<56E3BAE3-AD41-43A8-AC8E-E2E83AE529B0@gmail.com>
	<E20040F2-FD02-48B1-B32F-F577579AA533@freenet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <31ADA4ED-2B22-4672-97D3-CF2775988A27@gmail.com>

The only attested MC form is <vthyk>. *Euthik has been deduced from  
the LC hapax
legomenon <ethick> in Fa Ethreaz do chee Ethick gwreage dah John  
Jenkins.
Since MC spellings with either eu/ue or ik are unattested, and since  
ithik is common in Lhuyd,
the SWF should write the word <uthyk>. Euthik is the KK spelling.

Nicholas

On 10 Jan 2009, at 10:29, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> I would imagine that the u- form is the most heavily attested.

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From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Sat Jan 10 12:17:07 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:17:07 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] 'Pound' in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <31ADA4ED-2B22-4672-97D3-CF2775988A27@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090110121708.F38BA13BC14F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

There's also <huthyk> in RD 2304  "y mons ow crye huthyk".

Dan

 

  _____  

From: nicholas williams
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:07 PM



The only attested MC form is <vthyk>. *Euthik has been deduced from the LC
hapax

legomenon <ethick> in Fa Ethreaz do chee Ethick gwreage dah John Jenkins.

Since MC spellings with either eu/ue or ik are unattested, and since ithik
is common in Lhuyd,

the SWF should write the word <uthyk>. Euthik is the KK spelling.

Nicholas

 

On 10 Jan 2009, at 10:29, Craig Weatherhill wrote:





I would imagine that the u- form is the most heavily attested.

 

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From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Sat Jan 10 12:17:07 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:17:07 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] euthik/ithik
In-Reply-To: <56E3BAE3-AD41-43A8-AC8E-E2E83AE529B0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090110121709.F09B913BC153@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

Yes, and this is unfortunate. It was part of the list of emendations. It's
especially silly because <uthik> would have rendered a correct LC
pronunciation according to the rules that <u> in LC is pronounced /i/. I
suppose this should go on our list of criticisms.

Dan 

 

  _____  

From: nicholas williams
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 11:26 AM

 

The latest decision, I gather, is <euthik> and a LC variant <ithik>. This
means that <uthik> is not allowed in the SWF.

Nicholas

 

On 9 Jan 2009, at 23:36, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

According to Dan's dictionary, the SWF allows for both <euthik> and <uthik>,
the latter being cited as an exclusively Middle Cornish form).



 

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan 10 13:30:25 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:30:25 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] euthik/ithik
In-Reply-To: <20090110121709.F09B913BC153@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090110121709.F09B913BC153@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <9B76B835-D2E5-4C98-B6A4-BEB1B96A34B1@gmail.com>

Not criticisms, Dan. Suggested revisions.
We are not condemning the SWF, just hoping to see it improved when the  
time comes.
The SWF is a great achievement in that it has brought antagonists  
together.

Nicholas

On 10 Jan 2009, at 12:17, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> I suppose this should go on our list of criticisms

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan 10 13:31:49 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:31:49 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'Pound' in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <20090110121708.F38BA13BC14F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090110121708.F38BA13BC14F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <E9DE9E98-96CA-43AD-893F-806CFA7B4424@gmail.com>

Which might suggested that between vowels in juncture [h] was
sometimes used.

On 10 Jan 2009, at 12:17, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> ?y mons ow crye huthyk?

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From craig at agantavas.org  Sat Jan 10 15:06:39 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:06:39 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'Pound' in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <20090110121708.F38BA13BC14F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090110121708.F38BA13BC14F@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <CDD0E5B2-38C4-4275-ADCF-BDD43F0197A0@agantavas.org>

That sounds typically Cornish : "I crashed into the 'edge, hofficer".

Craig

On 10 Gen 2009, at 12:17, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> There?s also <huthyk> in RD 2304  ?y mons ow crye huthyk?.
> Dan
>
> From: nicholas williams
> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:07 PM
>
> The only attested MC form is <vthyk>. *Euthik has been deduced from  
> the LC hapax
> legomenon <ethick> in Fa Ethreaz do chee Ethick gwreage dah John  
> Jenkins.
> Since MC spellings with either eu/ue or ik are unattested, and since  
> ithik is common in Lhuyd,
> the SWF should write the word <uthyk>. Euthik is the KK spelling.
> Nicholas
>
> On 10 Jan 2009, at 10:29, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>
> I would imagine that the u- form is the most heavily attested.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Sat Jan 10 17:12:27 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:12:27 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] euthik/ithik
In-Reply-To: <9B76B835-D2E5-4C98-B6A4-BEB1B96A34B1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090110171228.4DDB713BC149@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

Me 'vedn perthy cov a hedna!

Dan

 

  _____  

From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net [mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net]
On Behalf Of nicholas williams
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:30 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] euthik/ithik

 

Not criticisms, Dan. Suggested revisions.

We are not condemning the SWF, just hoping to see it improved when the time
comes.

The SWF is a great achievement in that it has brought antagonists together.

 

Nicholas

 

On 10 Jan 2009, at 12:17, Daniel Prohaska wrote:





I suppose this should go on our list of criticisms

 

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From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Sun Jan 11 14:52:21 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:52:21 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] 'Pound' in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <CDD0E5B2-38C4-4275-ADCF-BDD43F0197A0@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <20090111145224.12A5813BC100@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

Craig, 

This sounds pretty "English" to me. This is called "hypercorrection". Since
many varieties of English English and Cornish English drop the "'aitches",
they are sometimes unetymologically put in before words starting with a
vowel. The same happens to Northerners who want to use the southern phoneme
/V/ ("u" in "but", as opposed to /U/ "u" in "put"; Northerners have the same
vowel in "but" and "put"). "But it didn't do him much good" /bUt It dIdnt
du: Im mUtS gUd/ hypercorrected to: /b at t It dIdnt du: Im mUtS gVd /, instead
of /bVt It dIdnt du: Im mVtS gUd/.

 

This happens because the speaker hasn't got a "native" feel for the way the
phonemes are distributed across the phonological system of a related, but
different dialect. 

Think of the difficulty Neo-Cornish speakers have when trying to distinguish
the diphthongs /Iw/ and /Ew/ from the monophthongs /y:/ and /u:/. There
tends to be large-scale overlapping of realisations such as [jUu], [EU],
[Yy], [jY:], [Uu] for all these phonemes, since these distinctions are
unnatural to the native English speaker. 

Dan 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Craig Weatherhill
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:07 PM

 

That sounds typically Cornish : "I crashed into the 'edge, hofficer".

Craig

 

On 10 Gen 2009, at 12:17, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> There's also <huthyk> in RD 2304  "y mons ow crye huthyk".

> Dan

> 

> From: nicholas williams

> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:07 PM

> 

> The only attested MC form is <vthyk>. *Euthik has been deduced from  

> the LC hapax

> legomenon <ethick> in Fa Ethreaz do chee Ethick gwreage dah John  

> Jenkins.

> Since MC spellings with either eu/ue or ik are unattested, and since  

> ithik is common in Lhuyd,

> the SWF should write the word <uthyk>. Euthik is the KK spelling.

> Nicholas

> 

> On 10 Jan 2009, at 10:29, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> 

> 

> I would imagine that the u- form is the most heavily attested.

 

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From j.mills at email.com  Mon Jan 12 09:05:11 2009
From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:05:11 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'Pound' in Cornish
Message-ID: <20090112090511.29BF2BE4078@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>

Prothetic <h> is sometimes found in the texts when the previous word ends
in a vowel.Jon

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Daniel Prohaska"
  To: "'Standard Cornish discussion list'"
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] 'Pound' in Cornish
  Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:17:07 +0100

There?s also <huthyk> in RD 2304  ?y mons ow crye huthyk?.

Dan

------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: nicholas williams
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:07 PM

The only attested MC form is <vthyk>. *Euthik has been deduced from the
LC hapax

legomenon <ethick> in Fa Ethreaz do chee Ethick gwreage dah John Jenkins.

Since MC spellings with either eu/ue or ik are unattested, and since
ithik is common in Lhuyd,

the SWF should write the word <uthyk>. Euthik is the KK spelling.

Nicholas

On 10 Jan 2009, at 10:29, Craig Weatherhill wrote:



I would imagine that the u- form is the most heavily attested.


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net



_____________________________________
Dr. Jon Mills,
School of European Culture and Languages,
University of Kent

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From everson at evertype.com  Tue Jan 13 12:08:38 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:08:38 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Willow
Message-ID: <EAC5844F-2300-44E7-B878-554A4FABEC6D@evertype.com>

Dan,

GKK has heligen, evidently because of Latin salix. Breton has helegenn  
and Welsh helygen, so I think Cornish should retain helygen, and not  
adopt *heligen.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From s.hewitt at unesco.org  Tue Jan 13 12:11:07 2009
From: s.hewitt at unesco.org (Hewitt, Stephen)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:11:07 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Willow
In-Reply-To: <EAC5844F-2300-44E7-B878-554A4FABEC6D@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <DF54A58A8C30A746BF3B834B4A6BA1AE80257A@MAILSERVER-01.hq.int.unesco.org>

Breton has haleg, halegenn.

Steve Hewitt


-----Original Message-----
From: spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net
[mailto:spellyans-bounces at kernowek.net]On Behalf Of Michael Everson
Sent: 13 January 2009 13:09
To: Spellyans
Subject: [Spellyans] Willow


Dan,

GKK has heligen, evidently because of Latin salix. Breton has helegenn  
and Welsh helygen, so I think Cornish should retain helygen, and not  
adopt *heligen.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net



From everson at evertype.com  Tue Jan 13 13:18:05 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:18:05 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Willow
In-Reply-To: <DF54A58A8C30A746BF3B834B4A6BA1AE80257A@MAILSERVER-01.hq.int.unesco.org>
References: <DF54A58A8C30A746BF3B834B4A6BA1AE80257A@MAILSERVER-01.hq.int.unesco.org>
Message-ID: <B2176DDD-CAA6-4FAF-9C19-785D2DF1CCB0@evertype.com>

On 13 Jan 2009, at 12:11, Hewitt, Stephen wrote:

> Breton has haleg, halegenn.

My typo, sorry.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From j.mills at email.com  Tue Jan 13 13:37:40 2009
From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:37:40 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Willow
Message-ID: <20090113133740.7375C1CE8FB@ws1-6.us4.outblaze.com>

Lhuyd (1707: 16b) gives the collective "Helak" under the heading "I. chang'd into A." He gives the singulative as "Helagan" (Lhuyd 1707: 143c).
Jon

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Everson" <everson at evertype.com>
> To: Spellyans <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Subject: [Spellyans] Willow
> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:08:38 +0000
> 
> 
> Dan,
> 
> GKK has heligen, evidently because of Latin salix. Breton has 
> helegenn  and Welsh helygen, so I think Cornish should retain 
> helygen, and not  adopt *heligen.
> 
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

>



_____________________________________
Dr. Jon Mills,
School of European Culture and Languages,
University of Kent


-- 
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com




From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Tue Jan 13 16:37:23 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:37:23 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Willow
In-Reply-To: <B2176DDD-CAA6-4FAF-9C19-785D2DF1CCB0@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <20090113163726.06A9B13BC0BD@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

Thanks Michael, 

I now have <helyk> (coll.), <helygen> (f.).

Dan

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From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Tue Jan 13 16:39:42 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:39:42 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Willow
In-Reply-To: <EAC5844F-2300-44E7-B878-554A4FABEC6D@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <20090113163945.A494813BC0BF@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

Schrijver (1995) gives a Proto-Celtic root *salik-

Dan

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Everson
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 1:09 PM

 

"Dan,

GKK has heligen, evidently because of Latin salix. Breton has helegenn and
Welsh helygen, so I think Cornish should retain helygen, and not adopt
*heligen."

 

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From everson at evertype.com  Tue Jan 13 17:26:46 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:26:46 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Willow
In-Reply-To: <20090113163945.A494813BC0BF@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090113163945.A494813BC0BF@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <4D41A618-FE1E-4AF3-9574-0EF2B3ACD9F1@evertype.com>

On 13 Jan 2009, at 16:39, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> Schrijver (1995) gives a Proto-Celtic root *salik-

I was wrong about George too, who cites a reconstructed CC form.

Interesting. Reconstructed Common Cornish.... Kernowek Kebmyn...

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Wed Jan 14 12:34:20 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:34:20 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
Message-ID: <20090114123422.9E63813BC0F8@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

KK has <gwreydhen> for ?root?, UCR has <gwredhen>. OC <grueiten>, W
<gwraidd>, B <gwrizienn>; *wrad-io- < *wreh?d-.

What to do about the SWF entry. Help appreciated?

Dan

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Wed Jan 14 12:56:00 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:56:00 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
In-Reply-To: <20090114123422.9E63813BC0F8@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090114123422.9E63813BC0F8@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <ae1570660901140456x47eaac6bn7902075e3e724a2c@mail.gmail.com>

The spellings in the texts are:

gwrythyow pl OM
gurythyow pl OM
gvrythyow pl. OM
an wreythan x 3 TH
an wrethyan TH
gwryth pl. BK
gwrethow pl CW
ha'y gwreythow pl CW
Hy gwredhan yw down Lhuyd

The verb gurythya 'root' occurs twice in OM

Nicholas

On 1/14/09, Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> KK has <gwreydhen> for "root", UCR has <gwredhen>. OC <grueiten>, W
> <gwraidd>, B <gwrizienn>; *wrad-io- < *wreh?d-.
>
> What to do about the SWF entry. Help appreciated?
>
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
>  Spellyans mailing list
>  Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>



From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 13:50:48 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:50:48 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
In-Reply-To: <20090114123422.9E63813BC0F8@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <20090114123422.9E63813BC0F8@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <56CA4A37-DE3D-44F6-9321-2FB06B0008C3@freenet.co.uk>

The place-name Trythall contains this word,  This is pronounced with  
Try- pronounced to rhyme with English 'try" - with the th a definite  
dh. (TRY-dhul).  The name was Trewreythel 1289.  I  judge that this is  
tre, 'farm" + gwreydh + adj. suffix -el, and might mean something on  
the lines of "farm where root(crops) grow".

Craig


On 14 Gen 2009, at 12:34, Daniel Prohaska wrote:

> KK has <gwreydhen> for ?root?, UCR has <gwredhen>. OC <grueiten>, W  
> <gwraidd>, B <gwrizienn>; *wrad-io- < *wreh?d-.
> What to do about the SWF entry. Help appreciated?
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk  Wed Jan 14 14:08:50 2009
From: janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk (janicelobb at tiscali.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:08:50 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
Message-ID: <21079404.1231942130569.JavaMail.root@ps29>


Modern Cornish has <gwredhan>, not too different from UCR

Jan


----Original Message----
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com
Date: 14/01/2009 12:34 
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"<spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subj: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?








KK has <gwreydhen> for ?root?, UCR has <gwredhen>. OC <grueiten>, W <gwraidd>, B <gwrizienn>; *wrad-io- < *wreh?d-.
What to do about the SWF entry. Help appreciated?
Dan

 
Get 50% off Norton Security 2009 - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/security 
________________________________________________
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From ajtrim at msn.com  Wed Jan 14 14:17:39 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:17:39 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
In-Reply-To: <20090114123422.9E63813BC0F8@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<ae1570660901140456x47eaac6bn7902075e3e724a2c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20090114123422.9E63813BC0F8@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<ae1570660901140456x47eaac6bn7902075e3e724a2c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS13BB981378A24880D4300CCD60@phx.gbl>

Is this a classic b?s/b?s word?
If so, "root" should be gwredhan/gwrydhan in the SWF.

Regards,

Andrew J. Trim



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Nicholas Williams" <njawilliams at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:56 PM
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?

> The spellings in the texts are:
>
> gwrythyow pl OM
> gurythyow pl OM
> gvrythyow pl. OM
> an wreythan x 3 TH
> an wrethyan TH
> gwryth pl. BK
> gwrethow pl CW
> ha'y gwreythow pl CW
> Hy gwredhan yw down Lhuyd
>
> The verb gurythya 'root' occurs twice in OM
>
> Nicholas
>
> On 1/14/09, Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> KK has <gwreydhen> for "root", UCR has <gwredhen>. OC <grueiten>, W
>> <gwraidd>, B <gwrizienn>; *wrad-io- < *wreh?d-.
>>
>> What to do about the SWF entry. Help appreciated?
>>
>> Dan
>> _______________________________________________
>>  Spellyans mailing list
>>  Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> 



From everson at evertype.com  Wed Jan 14 14:28:44 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:28:44 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS13BB981378A24880D4300CCD60@phx.gbl>
References: <20090114123422.9E63813BC0F8@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<ae1570660901140456x47eaac6bn7902075e3e724a2c@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS13BB981378A24880D4300CCD60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FF8BC52A-E567-4ED0-84F7-759F680C8921@evertype.com>

On 14 Jan 2009, at 14:17, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> Is this a classic b?s/b?s word?

"Classic" b?s/b?s words are monosyllables, it should be said.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Wed Jan 14 17:39:34 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:39:34 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
In-Reply-To: <ae1570660901140456x47eaac6bn7902075e3e724a2c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090114173935.216BD13BC066@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

Dhew?whei lowena!

I?m having trouble with the Cornish word for ?root?. The KK dictionary gives
gwreydhenn, UCR gwredhen, RLC has gwredhan. Traditional Cornish attestations
are gwrythyow (pl., OM), gurythyow (pl., OM), gvrythyow (pl., OM), an
wreythan (x 3 TH), an wrethyan (TH), gwryth (pl., BK), gwrethow (pl. CW),
ha'y gwreythow (pl. CW), Hy gwredhan yw down (Lhuyd). The verb gurythya
'root' occurs twice in OM (Thank you Nicholas for providing these forms).
OCVoc has grueiten. The Welsh cognate is gwraidd and the Breton plural is
gwizio? (singulative gwrizienn). A typical Proto-Celtic reconstruction is
*wrad-io-. Craig has provided me with the place name Trythall which was
recorded as Trewreydhel in 1289.

a)       My question is, should the collective noun have a diphthongal or
monophthongal reflex?

b)       Is the stressed vowel of the disyllabic reflex (in the singulative
gwrXdhen and plural gwrXdhyow) different from the vowel in the collective
noun gwrXdh?

c)       Was the high front vowel through secondary i-affection in the verb
gurythya and the plural gurythyow analogically transferred onto the
collective and singulative form? 

Any ideas and comments would be greatly appreciated. 

Gromercy dhew?, 

Dan

 

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Wed Jan 14 19:07:46 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:46 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
In-Reply-To: <20090114173935.216BD13BC066@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
References: <ae1570660901140456x47eaac6bn7902075e3e724a2c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090114173935.216BD13BC066@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
Message-ID: <ae1570660901141107x6c877974h77850e525b530e60@mail.gmail.com>

I should recommend:

gwredhen, gwrydh (KS gwr?dh), gwredhyow
gwredhya

Nicholas

On 1/14/09, Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Dhew'whei lowena!
>
> I'm having trouble with the Cornish word for "root". The KK dictionary gives
> gwreydhenn, UCR gwredhen, RLC has gwredhan. Traditional Cornish attestations
> are gwrythyow (pl., OM), gurythyow (pl., OM), gvrythyow (pl., OM), an
> wreythan (x 3 TH), an wrethyan (TH), gwryth (pl., BK), gwrethow (pl. CW),
> ha'y gwreythow (pl. CW), Hy gwredhan yw down (Lhuyd). The verb gurythya
> 'root' occurs twice in OM (Thank you Nicholas for providing these forms).
> OCVoc has grueiten. The Welsh cognate is gwraidd and the Breton plural is
> gwizio? (singulative gwrizienn). A typical Proto-Celtic reconstruction is
> *wrad-io-. Craig has provided me with the place name Trythall which was
> recorded as Trewreydhel in 1289.
>
> a)       My question is, should the collective noun have a diphthongal or
> monophthongal reflex?
>
> b)       Is the stressed vowel of the disyllabic reflex (in the singulative
> gwrXdhen and plural gwrXdhyow) different from the vowel in the collective
> noun gwrXdh?
>
> c)       Was the high front vowel through secondary i-affection in the verb
> gurythya and the plural gurythyow analogically transferred onto the
> collective and singulative form?
>
> Any ideas and comments would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Gromercy dhew',
>
> Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  Spellyans mailing list
>  Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
>



From owen.e.cook at gmail.com  Fri Jan 16 14:08:53 2009
From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:08:53 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
In-Reply-To: <ae1570660901141107x6c877974h77850e525b530e60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ae1570660901140456x47eaac6bn7902075e3e724a2c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090114173935.216BD13BC066@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<ae1570660901141107x6c877974h77850e525b530e60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0901160608s9569978s885e8fb820f27d77@mail.gmail.com>

Now, the Old, Middle and Tudor spellings we've seen do seem to me to
imply a good deal of [@j] (with perhaps a variant [I] before yod). By
Late Cornish, however, Lhuyd's got this as gwredhan, which pretty
clearly ought to indicate [gwreD at n]. If there's alternation here, it
seems to me that it should be:

gwr?dhyow, gwr?dhya, gwr?dh [Middle and Tudor]
gwreydhen, gwreydhow, Trewreydhel [Middle and Tudor]
gwr?dhen [Late]

If I'm right, this is not a 'classic' b?s/b?s word at all -- it's the
diphthong that throws the schema off. Small wonder that this
irregularity should have been forgotten by Lhuyd's time.

~~Owen

2009/1/14 Nicholas Williams <njawilliams at gmail.com> rug screfa:
> I should recommend:
>
> gwredhen, gwrydh (KS gwr?dh), gwredhyow
> gwredhya
>
> Nicholas



From njawilliams at gmail.com  Fri Jan 16 16:01:18 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:01:18 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0901160608s9569978s885e8fb820f27d77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ae1570660901140456x47eaac6bn7902075e3e724a2c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090114173935.216BD13BC066@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<ae1570660901141107x6c877974h77850e525b530e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901160608s9569978s885e8fb820f27d77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ae1570660901160801x1380a392k8cce47a29f44031@mail.gmail.com>

When y in a suffix follows y in a diphthong in the preceding syllable
it is not uncommon for the diphthong to be simplified.
Examples include voydya > vodya, joynya > jonya, junya and defoylya > defolya.
I think gwreydhyow, gwredhya may be another example.

Nicholas

On 1/16/09, Owen Cook <owen.e.cook at gmail.com> wrote:
> Now, the Old, Middle and Tudor spellings we've seen do seem to me to
>  imply a good deal of [@j] (with perhaps a variant [I] before yod). By
>  Late Cornish, however, Lhuyd's got this as gwredhan, which pretty
>  clearly ought to indicate [gwreD at n]. If there's alternation here, it
>  seems to me that it should be:
>
>  gwr?dhyow, gwr?dhya, gwr?dh [Middle and Tudor]
>  gwreydhen, gwreydhow, Trewreydhel [Middle and Tudor]
>  gwr?dhen [Late]
>
>  If I'm right, this is not a 'classic' b?s/b?s word at all -- it's the
>  diphthong that throws the schema off. Small wonder that this
>  irregularity should have been forgotten by Lhuyd's time.
>
>  ~~Owen
>
>  2009/1/14 Nicholas Williams <njawilliams at gmail.com> rug screfa:
>
> > I should recommend:
>  >
>  > gwredhen, gwrydh (KS gwr?dh), gwredhyow
>  > gwredhya
>  >
>  > Nicholas
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  Spellyans mailing list
>  Spellyans at kernowek.net
>  http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>



From everson at evertype.com  Sat Jan 17 15:42:44 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:42:44 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK
Message-ID: <0B4E114D-00D1-4A6A-AC39-9500158ABD15@evertype.com>

Evidently the diaeresis is now recommended to show hiatus in foreign  
names. See http://www.bibelkernewek.com/chanjyow_efan.htm

That would be "diacritics in KK", wouldn't it?

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From owen.e.cook at gmail.com  Sun Jan 18 19:43:05 2009
From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:43:05 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK
In-Reply-To: <0B4E114D-00D1-4A6A-AC39-9500158ABD15@evertype.com>
References: <0B4E114D-00D1-4A6A-AC39-9500158ABD15@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0901181143i1ff0d94fm2518cb78d593224d@mail.gmail.com>

Good Lord, they were using "Alfe-us, Thadde-us, Barteme-us, Time-us,
Sakke-us, Nere-us, Hymene-us, Emma-us" before? Yick.

~~Owen

2009/1/17 Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>:
> Evidently the diaeresis is now recommended to show hiatus in foreign names.
> See http://www.bibelkernewek.com/chanjyow_efan.htm
>
> That would be "diacritics in KK", wouldn't it?
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com



From owen.e.cook at gmail.com  Sun Jan 18 19:49:41 2009
From: owen.e.cook at gmail.com (Owen Cook)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:49:41 +0200
Subject: [Spellyans] <gwredhen> or <gwreydhen> "root"?
In-Reply-To: <ae1570660901160801x1380a392k8cce47a29f44031@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ae1570660901140456x47eaac6bn7902075e3e724a2c@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090114173935.216BD13BC066@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>
	<ae1570660901141107x6c877974h77850e525b530e60@mail.gmail.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901160608s9569978s885e8fb820f27d77@mail.gmail.com>
	<ae1570660901160801x1380a392k8cce47a29f44031@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6e5d3b9f0901181149h3dd24f51va6f476dfabbd7fa8@mail.gmail.com>

Right, which is why Dan wonders whether gwr?dh might not also have
been a back-formation. A bit slow, but I'm getting there!

Would treylya/trelya (how does the SWF/KS have it?) be able to cast
any light on this word -- the phonetic environment is somewhat
similar.

~~Owen

2009/1/16 Nicholas Williams <njawilliams at gmail.com>:
> When y in a suffix follows y in a diphthong in the preceding syllable
> it is not uncommon for the diphthong to be simplified.
> Examples include voydya > vodya, joynya > jonya, junya and defoylya > defolya.
> I think gwreydhyow, gwredhya may be another example.
>
> Nicholas



From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sun Jan 18 21:53:58 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:53:58 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK
In-Reply-To: <6e5d3b9f0901181143i1ff0d94fm2518cb78d593224d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0B4E114D-00D1-4A6A-AC39-9500158ABD15@evertype.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901181143i1ff0d94fm2518cb78d593224d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ae1570660901181353g606ab312gadc43578da70b95f@mail.gmail.com>

I particularly like Time-us. Looks like a trade name.

Nicholas

On 1/18/09, Owen Cook <owen.e.cook at gmail.com> wrote:
> Good Lord, they were using "Alfe-us, Thadde-us, Barteme-us, Time-us,
>  Sakke-us, Nere-us, Hymene-us, Emma-us" before? Yick.
>
>  ~~Owen
>
>  2009/1/17 Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>:
>
> > Evidently the diaeresis is now recommended to show hiatus in foreign names.
>  > See http://www.bibelkernewek.com/chanjyow_efan.htm
>  >
>  > That would be "diacritics in KK", wouldn't it?
>  >
>  > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Spellyans mailing list
>  Spellyans at kernowek.net
>  http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>



From ajtrim at msn.com  Mon Jan 19 00:53:30 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:53:30 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK
In-Reply-To: <0B4E114D-00D1-4A6A-AC39-9500158ABD15@evertype.com><6e5d3b9f0901181143i1ff0d94fm2518cb78d593224d@mail.gmail.com>
	<ae1570660901181353g606ab312gadc43578da70b95f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0B4E114D-00D1-4A6A-AC39-9500158ABD15@evertype.com><6e5d3b9f0901181143i1ff0d94fm2518cb78d593224d@mail.gmail.com>
	<ae1570660901181353g606ab312gadc43578da70b95f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS63842BAD0EA01548B156CCCD30@phx.gbl>

Why didn't they just write: Alfe, Thadde, Barteme, Time, Sakke, Nere, 
Hymene, Emma?
Did they really need to Latinise these names in Cornish?
The Latin "-us" endings add nothing to the story.
Diacritical marks are sometimes useful but they should always be kept to a 
minimum.


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Nicholas Williams" <njawilliams at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:53 PM
To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK

> I particularly like Time-us. Looks like a trade name.
>
> Nicholas
>
> On 1/18/09, Owen Cook <owen.e.cook at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good Lord, they were using "Alfe-us, Thadde-us, Barteme-us, Time-us,
>>  Sakke-us, Nere-us, Hymene-us, Emma-us" before? Yick.
>>
>>  ~~Owen
>>
>>  2009/1/17 Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>:
>>
>> > Evidently the diaeresis is now recommended to show hiatus in foreign 
>> > names.
>>  > See http://www.bibelkernewek.com/chanjyow_efan.htm
>>  >
>>  > That would be "diacritics in KK", wouldn't it?
>>  >
>>  > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>>
 




From everson at evertype.com  Mon Jan 19 01:02:40 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 01:02:40 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS63842BAD0EA01548B156CCCD30@phx.gbl>
References: <0B4E114D-00D1-4A6A-AC39-9500158ABD15@evertype.com><6e5d3b9f0901181143i1ff0d94fm2518cb78d593224d@mail.gmail.com>
	<ae1570660901181353g606ab312gadc43578da70b95f@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS63842BAD0EA01548B156CCCD30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <5BC565C8-9DCD-4090-A1AB-2AB397E8A86C@evertype.com>

On 19 Jan 2009, at 00:53, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> Why didn't they just write: Alfe, Thadde, Barteme, Time, Sakke,  
> Nere, Hymene, Emma?
> Did they really need to Latinise these names in Cornish?

Erm. The names are Latin, or were when the Cornish encountered them.

> The Latin "-us" endings add nothing to the story.
> Diacritical marks are sometimes useful but they should always be  
> kept to a minimum.

I have no objection to the use of diacritical marks. To distinguish  
<eu> /?/~/e/ and <e?> /eu/ seems quite reasonable. One might use <ew>  
for these (Thaddews etc).

The point, however, is that KK publications (biblical, no less) are  
recommending the use of diacritics. Why then were diacritics shunned  
by the KK representatives in the AHG?

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Mon Jan 19 08:59:52 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (Nicholas Williams)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:59:52 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS63842BAD0EA01548B156CCCD30@phx.gbl>
References: <0B4E114D-00D1-4A6A-AC39-9500158ABD15@evertype.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901181143i1ff0d94fm2518cb78d593224d@mail.gmail.com>
	<ae1570660901181353g606ab312gadc43578da70b95f@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS63842BAD0EA01548B156CCCD30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <ae1570660901190059j1cde7e71sfb4f40833807dfc1@mail.gmail.com>

They write Alfeus, Thaddeus, etc. with -us because the English has -us.
Nicholas

On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 12:53 AM, <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> Why didn't they just write: Alfe, Thadde, Barteme, Time, Sakke, Nere,
> Hymene, Emma?
> Did they really need to Latinise these names in Cornish?
> The Latin "-us" endings add nothing to the story.
> Diacritical marks are sometimes useful but they should always be kept to a
> minimum.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew J. Trim
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Nicholas Williams" <njawilliams at gmail.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:53 PM
> To: "Standard Cornish discussion list" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
> Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK
>
>
>  I particularly like Time-us. Looks like a trade name.
>>
>> Nicholas
>>
>> On 1/18/09, Owen Cook <owen.e.cook at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Good Lord, they were using "Alfe-us, Thadde-us, Barteme-us, Time-us,
>>>  Sakke-us, Nere-us, Hymene-us, Emma-us" before? Yick.
>>>
>>>  ~~Owen
>>>
>>>  2009/1/17 Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>:
>>>
>>> > Evidently the diaeresis is now recommended to show hiatus in foreign >
>>> names.
>>>  > See http://www.bibelkernewek.com/chanjyow_efan.htm
>>>  >
>>>  > That would be "diacritics in KK", wouldn't it?
>>>  >
>>>  > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>>>
>>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
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From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Jan 19 17:37:38 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 17:37:38 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK
In-Reply-To: <ae1570660901190059j1cde7e71sfb4f40833807dfc1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0B4E114D-00D1-4A6A-AC39-9500158ABD15@evertype.com>
	<6e5d3b9f0901181143i1ff0d94fm2518cb78d593224d@mail.gmail.com>
	<ae1570660901181353g606ab312gadc43578da70b95f@mail.gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS63842BAD0EA01548B156CCCD30@phx.gbl>
	<ae1570660901190059j1cde7e71sfb4f40833807dfc1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D33B63D2-C356-4A37-9D41-4A6470ED12EE@yahoo.co.uk>

"Rome-o, Rome-o, hwerrforr art dhow?"

Sure, the Immortal Bard of Stratford would have just loved it!

Eddie Foirbeis Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow byner re bons lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Tue Jan 20 08:32:23 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:32:23 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Diacritics in KK
In-Reply-To: <D33B63D2-C356-4A37-9D41-4A6470ED12EE@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20090120083226.2F06D13BC0C4@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

". art dhaw?" if you please! ;-)

Dan

 

________________________________________

From: Eddie Climo

Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 6:38 PM

 

"Rome-o, Rome-o, hwerrforr art dhow?"

 

Sure, the Immortal Bard of Stratford would have just loved it!

 

Eddie Foirbeis Climo

- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -

Dres ethom akennow byner re bons lyeshes

Accenti non multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

 

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From everson at evertype.com  Thu Jan 22 00:19:35 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:19:35 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek -- Alice's
	Adventures in Wonderland in Cornish
Message-ID: <8ECA51E4-C53B-4A27-95D3-C8D8367A0C05@evertype.com>

Alys in Pow an Anethow dyllys in Kernowek

Lien an tavas Kernowek a gemeras c?m br?s in rag agensow pan veu  
dyllys trailyans Kernowek a'n lyver Alys in Pow an Anethow gans Lewis  
Carroll. Jowal bian a lien an flehes yw an lyver Sowsnek, Alice's  
Adventures in Wonderland, a veu dyllys rag an kensa pr?s i'n vledhen  
1865. Trailyansow in lies tavas dyvers re dhysqwedhas dhia an termyn- 
na. Trailyer an versyon Kernowek, an Descajor Nicholas Williams, yw  
scoler a'n tavosow Keltek usy tregys in Wordhen. Kyns ?s ev dhe barusy  
an lyver-ma, ev a drailyas hag a dhyllas an lyver in Godhalek Wordhen.  
Y feu y drailyans ev degemerys gans gormola br?s hag lies onen a'n  
redyoryon a leverys fatell o an trailyans Godhalek gwell ?s an versyon  
Sowsnek a veu va f?ndys warnodho. Uhel dres ehen yw savon an Kernowek  
?sys gans an Descajor Williams, dell yw gwyw rag lyver bryntyn kepar  
ha hebma. Heb dowt y f?dh y drailyans a versyow Carroll consydrys i'n  
termyn a dheu avell jowals bian in lien agan y?th ny.

Yma an lyver screfys i'n spellyans gelwys Kernowek Standard. Hen yw  
p?r ogas dhe lytherednans an Furv Savonek Scrifys, an spellyans  
unverhes rag ?sadow i'n bewnans poblek hag i'n scolyow. Saw nebes  
fowtys bian i'n Furv Savonek Scrifys re beu emendys in Kernowek  
Standard, hag yma toknys diacrytek ?sys ino kefr?s dhe dhysqwedhes an  
dyffrans inter geryow spellys in kepar maner, b? dhe verkya vogalednow  
a v?dh leverys in fordhow dyffrans. Pynag oll a allo redya an Furv  
Savonek Scrifys a yllvyth redya an versyon-ma heb ancombrynsy v?th.

Y feu gwelys delinyansow gerys d? Syr John Tenniel i'n kensa dyllans  
a'n lyver in Sownek. Yma an pyctours-na gwelys in versyon Kernowek  
kefr?s. Dre vr?s yma an trailyans-ma kepar ha kensa dyllans, saw unsel  
ev dhe vos in Kernowek. Y feu an dyllans-ma olsettys ha dyllys gans  
Evertype, Cathair na Mart, Wordhen.

Y hyll cafos copiow a'n lyver dhyworth Amazon.co.uk, b? dhyworth  
Spyrys a Gernow, e-mail "shoppa @ spyrys.org", b? y f?dh tus abyl dhe  
brena copiow orth an Kesc?ssulyans a v?dh sensys gans MAGA in  
Lostwydhyel an 31 Genver 2009.

Gweler http://www.evertype.com/books/alys.html

=====
Alice in Wonderland published in Cornish

Literature in the Cornish language has taken a leap forward with the  
publication recently of a translation into the language of "Alice's  
Adventures in Wonderland" by Lewis Carroll. The book "Alice's  
Adventures in Wonderland" is a treasure of English children's  
literature and was first published in 1865. It has been translated  
into many languages. The translator, Professor Nicholas Williams, is a  
Celtic scholar based in Ireland. Previous to the Cornish edition he  
translated and published the book in Irish. This received great  
critical acclaim with many readers of the view that the Irish version  
was better than the original English. The Cornish used by Professor  
Williams is of a very high standard as befits a gem of English  
literature. His translation of Carroll's poetry will be regarded as  
gem of Cornish literature.

This book is written in the spelling called Kernowek Standard. It is  
very close to the orthography of the new Standard Written Form, the  
consensual spelling for use in public life and schools, except that  
some small errors in the Standard Written Form have been amended in  
this spelling, and diacritical marks are also used to show the  
differences between homonyms or to indicate vowels which are  
pronounced in different ways. Anyone who can read the Standard Written  
Form will be able to read this version without any difficulty.

This new book contains the famous illustrations of Sir John Tenniel,  
which first appeared in the original English edition. Overall the  
appearance of the book is that of a first edition except that it is in  
Cornish. The book was typeset and published by Evertype, Cathair na  
Mart, Ireland.

Copies may be obtained from Amazon.co.uk, or from Spyrys a Gernow, e- 
mail "shoppa @ spyrys.org", or they will be available at the Seminar  
being held by Maga at Lostwithiel on 31st January 2009.

See http://www.evertype.com/books/alys.html

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com


From everson at evertype.com  Thu Jan 22 01:19:13 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 01:19:13 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek -- Alice's
	Adventures in Wonderland in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <00221504700fef73090461077c24@google.com>
References: <00221504700fef73090461077c24@google.com>
Message-ID: <75545E1D-9768-4B46-8EFF-397826B1CAB0@evertype.com>

On 22 Jan 2009, at 00:38, Thomas wrote:

> Hi Michael,
>
> I'm delighted! I'd no idea it was already done. But will you not  
> make it available on Amazon US?
>
> Thomas

It *is* available there. http://www.amazon.com/Alys-Pow-Anethow-Lewis-Carroll/dp/1904808190/evertype-20

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From ajtrim at msn.com  Thu Jan 22 14:40:32 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:40:32 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek --
	Alice'sAdventures in Wonderland in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <00221504700fef73090461077c24@google.com>
	<75545E1D-9768-4B46-8EFF-397826B1CAB0@evertype.com>
References: <00221504700fef73090461077c24@google.com>
	<75545E1D-9768-4B46-8EFF-397826B1CAB0@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS2414C02B9E3DE757B51AB8CCCE0@phx.gbl>

Michael,

This is what the Amazon US product description says:

Product Details
Reading level: Ages 9-12

Paperback: 144 pages
Publisher: Evertype (February 1, 2009)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 1904808190
ISBN-13: 978-1904808190
Product Dimensions: 8.5 x 5.5 x 0.3 inches
Shipping Weight: 6.7 ounces (View shipping rates and policies)
Average Customer Review: No customer reviews yet. Be the first.

You might want to get them to change the Language to Cornish else it will 
get missed in a search.
In the meantime, you can "tag" it, which may work just as well.

Well done to all involved.


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Michael Everson" <everson at evertype.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:19 AM
To: "Spellyans" <spellyans at kernowek.net>
Subject: Re: [Spellyans] Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek --  
Alice'sAdventures in Wonderland in Cornish

> On 22 Jan 2009, at 00:38, Thomas wrote:
>
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> I'm delighted! I'd no idea it was already done. But will you not  make it 
>> available on Amazon US?
>>
>> Thomas
>
> It *is* available there. 
> http://www.amazon.com/Alys-Pow-Anethow-Lewis-Carroll/dp/1904808190/evertype-20
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
> 



From everson at evertype.com  Thu Jan 22 15:37:50 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:37:50 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek -- Alice's
	Adventures in Wonderland in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS2414C02B9E3DE757B51AB8CCCE0@phx.gbl>
References: <00221504700fef73090461077c24@google.com>
	<75545E1D-9768-4B46-8EFF-397826B1CAB0@evertype.com>
	<COL115-DS2414C02B9E3DE757B51AB8CCCE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BA247443-AB55-4F0A-B136-6B7CD674CA24@evertype.com>

On 22 Jan 2009, at 14:40, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> Paperback: 144 pages
> Publisher: Evertype (February 1, 2009)
> Language: English

Amazon's language popup menu does not include Cornish. I have  
requested that the Language tag be deleted.

> Well done to all involved.

Thank you. I hope that you will enjoy the book.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Thu Jan 22 17:47:17 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:47:17 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek -- Alice's
	Adventures in Wonderland in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <8ECA51E4-C53B-4A27-95D3-C8D8367A0C05@evertype.com>
References: <8ECA51E4-C53B-4A27-95D3-C8D8367A0C05@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <1A9332FF-59B5-4600-B711-5F4673598531@yahoo.co.uk>

On 22 Jan 2009, at 00:19, Michael Everson wrote:
> Alys in Pow an Anethow dyllys in Kernowek

Congratulations to both the author and the publisher for this great  
book. If the snippet that's on Michael's web site is anything to go  
by, we're in for a real treat of excellent Cornish prose from  
Nicholas! I can't wait to get hold of a copy at the MAGA meeting in  
Lost Wydhyel soon.

This will be welcome news to all Kernewegoryon of good heart,  
regardless of their orthographic persuasion. With the parallel  
editions in English and Irish, the book should be accessible to  
readers of a wide range of fluency (I'll be using the E. text as a  
crib to the Cornish, for sure!)

The usual whinging begrudgers will doubtless show their wonted ill  
grace; but they can be discounted as no more than a 'few old fossils'.

The first book in KS -- it won't be the last, by a long shot!

Eddie Foirbeis Climo




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 18:08:54 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:08:54 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
Message-ID: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>

In the texts the expression for ?up, upwards? is attested as follows:

yn ban x 47
in ban x 23
in badn x 1
in man x 1
e man x 1
man x 8.

The one instance of in man is in Tregear.
I believe KS should allow three forms: in b?n, in badn and in m?n.
What do other people think?

Nicholas
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From everson at evertype.com  Thu Jan 22 18:30:54 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:30:54 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D21095DA-87FA-4913-86D8-E6BEEAD802B3@evertype.com>

On 22 Jan 2009, at 18:08, nicholas williams wrote:

> I believe KS should allow three forms: in b?n, in badn and in m?n.
> What do other people think?

in bann = in badn

"in b?n" has the same pronunciation as "in bann"

"in m?n" is fine but I am not sure "in b?n" shouldn't simply be "in  
bann".

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 18:34:04 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:34:04 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <D21095DA-87FA-4913-86D8-E6BEEAD802B3@evertype.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<D21095DA-87FA-4913-86D8-E6BEEAD802B3@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <020D44A4-859A-45F4-AFE7-58DF6065F23C@gmail.com>

Why is in bann not to be pronounced in badn?
It is clear that in ban without pre-occlusion was attested.

On 22 Jan 2009, at 18:30, Michael Everson wrote:

> "in m?n" is fine but I am not sure "in b?n" shouldn't simply be "in  
> bann".




From everson at evertype.com  Thu Jan 22 19:11:59 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:11:59 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <020D44A4-859A-45F4-AFE7-58DF6065F23C@gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<D21095DA-87FA-4913-86D8-E6BEEAD802B3@evertype.com>
	<020D44A4-859A-45F4-AFE7-58DF6065F23C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A5D5A2EF-0D5B-4969-BF1D-0C4F90F744AE@evertype.com>

On 22 Jan 2009, at 18:34, nicholas williams wrote:

> Why is in bann not to be pronounced in badn?

Not sure I follow you. "in bann" may be pronounced as [ban] or [badn],  
depending on dialect preference, and "in badn" may be pronounced as  
[badn] or [ban].

> It is clear that in ban without pre-occlusion was attested.

Are you saying that in dialects that pre-occlude, "in b?n" also occurs?

>

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From craig at agantavas.org  Thu Jan 22 19:32:43 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:32:43 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <A5D5A2EF-0D5B-4969-BF1D-0C4F90F744AE@evertype.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<D21095DA-87FA-4913-86D8-E6BEEAD802B3@evertype.com>
	<020D44A4-859A-45F4-AFE7-58DF6065F23C@gmail.com>
	<A5D5A2EF-0D5B-4969-BF1D-0C4F90F744AE@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <DE760131-A83D-4127-B0BF-B3C6579F2F1F@agantavas.org>

Will we then have: in bann, in badn, in mann (and presumably) in madn  
(even though I don't recall its attestation)?

Craig


On 22 Gen 2009, at 19:11, Michael Everson wrote:

> On 22 Jan 2009, at 18:34, nicholas williams wrote:
>
>> Why is in bann not to be pronounced in badn?
>
> Not sure I follow you. "in bann" may be pronounced as [ban] or  
> [badn], depending on dialect preference, and "in badn" may be  
> pronounced as [badn] or [ban].
>
>> It is clear that in ban without pre-occlusion was attested.
>
> Are you saying that in dialects that pre-occlude, "in b?n" also  
> occurs?
>
>>
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 19:44:18 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:44:18 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <DE760131-A83D-4127-B0BF-B3C6579F2F1F@agantavas.org>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<D21095DA-87FA-4913-86D8-E6BEEAD802B3@evertype.com>
	<020D44A4-859A-45F4-AFE7-58DF6065F23C@gmail.com>
	<A5D5A2EF-0D5B-4969-BF1D-0C4F90F744AE@evertype.com>
	<DE760131-A83D-4127-B0BF-B3C6579F2F1F@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <8AC56B8E-6FA3-486D-97FA-02664C99A858@gmail.com>

Yes. In Late Cornish the forms without pre-occlusion are much more  
common
than the pre-occluding form. I have found only one example of in badn.
lemyn me es goer in badn CW 2202

Whereas in ban, a man, a mann are normal in Late Cornish.
Rowe writes mann 'up' but also keber < kebmer and vednyaz < wovydnas.
That is to say he pre-occludes in some words but never in in ban/in man.

Neil in his dictionary writes 'up' as aman passim.

That is why I should prefer to write in b?n, in m?n and in badn.

Nicholas


On 22 Jan 2009, at 19:32, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

>> Are you saying that in dialects that pre-occlude, "in b?n" also  
>> occurs?
>

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From koumanonff at orange.fr  Thu Jan 22 19:59:07 2009
From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Stefan Alliot)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:59:07 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek --
 Alice's	Adventures in Wonderland in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <1A9332FF-59B5-4600-B711-5F4673598531@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <8ECA51E4-C53B-4A27-95D3-C8D8367A0C05@evertype.com>
	<1A9332FF-59B5-4600-B711-5F4673598531@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4978D00B.8030601@orange.fr>

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From ajtrim at msn.com  Thu Jan 22 20:04:23 2009
From: ajtrim at msn.com (ajtrim at msn.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:04:23 -0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>

For what it is worth, I would allow :

in b?n (where pre-occlusion is not written)
in badn (where pre-occlusion is written)

I would prefer yn to be an option for in.

Unless you are aiming to be all inclusive, I would not bother with the forms with m.
They appear to me to be degenerative forms where the m has arisen from the combination nb.
I actually say "imbuilt" for inbuilt and "im-between" for in-between. I haven't dropped the b yet though!

If you do allow in m?n, should you also include in madn?


Regards,

Andrew J. Trim




From: nicholas williams 
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 6:08 PM
To: Standard Cornish discussion list 
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'


In the texts the expression for ?up, upwards? is attested as follows:


yn ban x 47
in ban x 23
in badn x 1
in man x 1
e man x 1
man x 8.


The one instance of in man is in Tregear.
I believe KS should allow three forms: in b?n, in badn and in m?n.
What do other people think?


Nicholas


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


_______________________________________________
Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 20:39:05 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:39:05 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>

In KS we use yn for the adverbial particle and in for the preposition.
Saying imbuilt for inbuilt is not the same as saying in m?n for in b?n.
im b?n might be expected by sandhi, but in m?n has gone a stage
further still and cannot be derived merely from the spelling <in b?n>.
I should still prefer the three attested forms in b?n, in badn, in m?n.

Nicholas

On 22 Jan 2009, at 20:04, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

> I would prefer yn to be an option for in.
>

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Thu Jan 22 20:41:23 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:41:23 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek --
	Alice's	Adventures in Wonderland in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <4978D00B.8030601@orange.fr>
References: <8ECA51E4-C53B-4A27-95D3-C8D8367A0C05@evertype.com>
	<1A9332FF-59B5-4600-B711-5F4673598531@yahoo.co.uk>
	<4978D00B.8030601@orange.fr>
Message-ID: <AEC71D9C-5DCA-455B-9D83-F7D31A137764@gmail.com>

Yth esoma ow qweles fatell wra an versyon Bretonek devnyth a  
delinyansow Tenniel inwedh.

On 22 Jan 2009, at 19:59, Stefan Alliot wrote:

> For my part I'll be using the Breton text as a crib to the Cornish

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From koumanonff at orange.fr  Thu Jan 22 21:02:06 2009
From: koumanonff at orange.fr (Stefan Alliot)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:02:06 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] Alys in Pow an Anethow in Kernowek
 --	Alice's	Adventures in Wonderland in Cornish
In-Reply-To: <AEC71D9C-5DCA-455B-9D83-F7D31A137764@gmail.com>
References: <8ECA51E4-C53B-4A27-95D3-C8D8367A0C05@evertype.com>	<1A9332FF-59B5-4600-B711-5F4673598531@yahoo.co.uk>	<4978D00B.8030601@orange.fr>
	<AEC71D9C-5DCA-455B-9D83-F7D31A137764@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4978DECE.6030301@orange.fr>

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From everson at evertype.com  Thu Jan 22 21:37:05 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 21:37:05 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <DE760131-A83D-4127-B0BF-B3C6579F2F1F@agantavas.org>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<D21095DA-87FA-4913-86D8-E6BEEAD802B3@evertype.com>
	<020D44A4-859A-45F4-AFE7-58DF6065F23C@gmail.com>
	<A5D5A2EF-0D5B-4969-BF1D-0C4F90F744AE@evertype.com>
	<DE760131-A83D-4127-B0BF-B3C6579F2F1F@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <A748A12D-FB80-4887-85B1-70BFE056927A@evertype.com>

On 22 Jan 2009, at 19:32, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> Will we then have: in bann, in badn, in mann (and presumably) in  
> madn (even though I don't recall its attestation)?

At a minimum we'd have in bann, in badn, in m?n.
M


From everson at evertype.com  Thu Jan 22 21:39:51 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 21:39:51 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E32B38D1-29C0-4FFA-8590-45BD7A9CEE77@evertype.com>

On 22 Jan 2009, at 20:39, nicholas williams wrote:

> In KS we use yn for the adverbial particle and in for the preposition.

And one of the reasons for this is to help address the concern of some  
RLC users, who have come to believe (rightly or wrongly) that "y"  
makes the orthography look "too medieval".

> I should still prefer the three attested forms in b?n, in badn, in  
> m?n.

With in badn we will have to allow in bann also.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 00:15:26 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:15:26 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>

On 22 Jan 2009, at 20:39, nicholas williams wrote:
> In KS we use yn for the adverbial particle and in for the preposition.

I see no need for this distinction; 'yn' for both works perfectly  
well, and should be allowed.

It's certainly my preference.

Eddie Foirbeis Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow byner re bons lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Fri Jan 23 08:41:03 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:41:03 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>

As a matter of interest in for 'in' is as common as yn.
<yn dan> occurs 18 times, <in dan> is attested 43 times.

Nicholas

On 23 Jan 2009, at 00:15, Eddie Climo wrote:

> I see no need for this distinction; 'yn' for both works perfectly  
> well, and should be allowed.
>




From j.mills at email.com  Fri Jan 23 09:19:48 2009
From: j.mills at email.com (Jon Mills)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 09:19:48 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
Message-ID: <20090123091949.11A83478088@ws1-5.us4.outblaze.com>

I agree with Nicholas' suggestions.Jon

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "nicholas williams"
  To: "Standard Cornish discussion list"
  Subject: Re: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
  Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:39:05 +0000

  In KS we use yn for the adverbial particle and in for the
  preposition. Saying imbuilt for inbuilt is not the same as saying in
  m?n for in b?n.im b?n might be expected by sandhi, but in m?n has
  gone a stagefurther still and cannot be derived merely from the
  spelling <in b?n>.I should still prefer the three attested forms in
  b?n, in badn, in m?n.
  Nicholas
  On 22 Jan 2009, at 20:04, <ajtrim at msn.com> <ajtrim at msn.com> wrote:

    I would prefer yn to be an option for in.



  _______________________________________________
  Spellyans mailing list
  Spellyans at kernowek.net
  http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net



_____________________________________
Dr. Jon Mills,
School of European Culture and Languages,
University of Kent

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From eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Jan 23 21:58:01 2009
From: eddie_climo at yahoo.co.uk (Eddie Climo)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:58:01 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>

This sounds like an equally good argument for admitting either 'yn',  
or  both 'yn' and 'in', for the preposition.

I do not favour the idea of introducing into Cornish artificial  
orthographic conventions to make homonymic distinctions between  
homophones.

With some reluctance, I do accept the idea of distinguishing, say, / 
gwyn/ 'white' from /gwy:n/ 'wine'; although I don't find this  
confusing myself, I do understand that some learners might find it so.

But as for using orthographic notation to distinguish homophones --  
therein lies the path to madness! Consider this little set (which is  
only one of many in Cornish!), and imagine trying to play this sort of  
game with them. Let this one example stand for the many similar ones  
that exist in Cornish; the word (rendered in UC) <cok>, with a long  
vowel, can mean (Nance 1938):
1) cuckoo
2) fishing boat
3) man-cook
4) empty, vain, worthless
5) one-eyed.

Imagine trying to find **5** different spellings for all of these  
meanings of /co:k/.

As we couldn't possibly do it for groups like /co:k/, we shouldn't  
advocate it for /yn/.

Eddie Climo
- -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
Dres ethom akennow byner re bons lyeshes
Accenti non multiplicanda praeter necessitatem


On 23 Jan 2009, at 08:41, nicholas williams wrote:
> As a matter of interest in for 'in' is as common as yn.
> <yn dan> occurs 18 times, <in dan> is attested 43 times.

> On 23 Jan 2009, at 00:15, Eddie Climo wrote:
>> I see no need for this distinction; 'yn' for both works perfectly  
>> well, and should be allowed.
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From craig at agantavas.org  Fri Jan 23 23:18:54 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:18:54 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>

Although I run the risk of ruffling feathers, I do wonder if we are  
not drifting off track with some of the items being discussed here.   
Surely, the idea was to concentrate upon addressing the faults  
recognised within SWF.  I don't understand where the yn/in question  
comes into this.  Are we, in fact, in danger of going a little too far?

Craig


On 23 Gen 2009, at 21:58, Eddie Climo wrote:

> This sounds like an equally good argument for admitting either 'yn',  
> or  both 'yn' and 'in', for the preposition.
>
> I do not favour the idea of introducing into Cornish artificial  
> orthographic conventions to make homonymic distinctions between  
> homophones.
>
> With some reluctance, I do accept the idea of distinguishing, say, / 
> gwyn/ 'white' from /gwy:n/ 'wine'; although I don't find this  
> confusing myself, I do understand that some learners might find it so.
>
> But as for using orthographic notation to distinguish homophones --  
> therein lies the path to madness! Consider this little set (which is  
> only one of many in Cornish!), and imagine trying to play this sort  
> of game with them. Let this one example stand for the many similar  
> ones that exist in Cornish; the word (rendered in UC) <cok>, with a  
> long vowel, can mean (Nance 1938):
> 1) cuckoo
> 2) fishing boat
> 3) man-cook
> 4) empty, vain, worthless
> 5) one-eyed.
>
> Imagine trying to find **5** different spellings for all of these  
> meanings of /co:k/.
>
> As we couldn't possibly do it for groups like /co:k/, we shouldn't  
> advocate it for /yn/.
>
> Eddie Climo
> - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> Dres ethom akennow byner re bons lyeshes
> Accenti non multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
>
>
> On 23 Jan 2009, at 08:41, nicholas williams wrote:
>> As a matter of interest in for 'in' is as common as yn.
>> <yn dan> occurs 18 times, <in dan> is attested 43 times.
>
>> On 23 Jan 2009, at 00:15, Eddie Climo wrote:
>>> I see no need for this distinction; 'yn' for both works perfectly  
>>> well, and should be allowed.
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From everson at evertype.com  Sat Jan 24 01:13:45 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:13:45 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
Message-ID: <AA579D78-BE00-4264-93F1-B8B563B1DB11@evertype.com>

On 23 Jan 2009, at 21:58, Eddie Climo wrote:

> This sounds like an equally good argument for admitting either 'yn',  
> or  both 'yn' and 'in', for the preposition.

That would add ambiguity to the system. Right now LS distinguishes  
between 'yn' the particle which causes mutation and 'in' the  
preposition which does not.

> I do not favour the idea of introducing into Cornish artificial  
> orthographic conventions to make homonymic distinctions between  
> homophones.

They are not just homophones. One causes mutation and the other does  
not. And in fact I am not sure they are homophones. I think the  
particle is probably quite unstressed, even to [?n] as, in Welsh,  
whilst the preposition is more strongly pronounced, as [?n] sometimes  
falling to [?n] in RLC.

> With some reluctance, I do accept the idea of distinguishing, say, / 
> gwyn/ 'white' from /gwy:n/ 'wine'; although I don't find this  
> confusing myself, I do understand that some learners might find it so.

Actually, lots and lots of learners (of KK) have quite reliably  
distinguished between [i?] and [?] with <i> and <y> respectively in  
monosyllables. Pragmatically this distinction, while not made qua  
distinction in the traditional texts, makes good sense and assists in  
resolving the choice between <i> and <y>. That problem is something  
the AHG never wrestled with; Nance didn't have to because he banned <i>.

Jenner writes the particle as <yn> and the preposition as <en>~<idn>.  
So distinguishing the particle from the preposition is not  
unprecedented in the Revival.

> But as for using orthographic notation to distinguish homophones --  
> therein lies the path to madness!

I don't think they are really homophones.

And I don't think your analogy between <c?k> and <yn>/<in> is actually  
analogous. Those are just nouns and adjectives. Not grammatical  
lexemes which behave differently.

> As we couldn't possibly do it for groups like /co:k/, we shouldn't  
> advocate it for /yn/.

You forget one other thing. A lot of RLC users think the letter <y> is  
"medieval". I don't really understand this, but still it's a fact. KS  
uses <i> in initial position in most words (because in general it  
really doesn't matter whether it is <i> or <y>; it's cosmetic).

A lot has been said about UC/UCR people changing from <ue> to <eu> as  
a compromise to KK. I consider <in> prep. (and initial i- in general)  
to be a compromise to RLC.

<in> is thoroughly Cornish. If it's unfamiliar because Nance shunned  
<i> entirely, it's understandable that you might find it unfamiliar.  
But it's not "better" or "more Cornish" to conflate these two words.  
They are different words, with different histories.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com


From everson at evertype.com  Sat Jan 24 01:16:15 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:16:15 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
	<B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>

On 23 Jan 2009, at 23:18, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> Although I run the risk of ruffling feathers, I do wonder if we are  
> not drifting off track with some of the items being discussed here.   
> Surely, the idea was to concentrate upon addressing the faults  
> recognised within SWF.  I don't understand where the yn/in question  
> comes into this.  Are we, in fact, in danger of going a little too  
> far?

One of the faults is that it has no principled distribution if <i> and  
<y> except in stressed monosyllables and some finals. The other is  
that its accommodation of RLC cosmetic preferences isn't so great.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From craig at agantavas.org  Sat Jan 24 09:11:09 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:11:09 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
	<B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
	<C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <F56DF338-AAF7-47CA-B670-A4CA8FBEE0C5@agantavas.org>

Yes, I see the point of accommodating RLC users.  Indeed, I sympathise  
as RLC fared particularly badly from the AHG agreements.  Also, as you  
know, I started off in RLC and therefore retain a soft spot for it.

With regard to <eu>, I understand some UC and UCR dissatisfaction with  
it (and I have never really liked it from an aesthetic point of  
view).  However, it must not be thought that this graph is KK.  Sure,  
KK has always used it but, when I look through my archive of historic  
place-names, it is in fact a commonplace graph in those historic  
forms, particularly in words such as <meur>, and therefore genuinely  
Cornish.

When I look through KS scripts, I note that we are using three  
different diacritic marks: the grave, the circumflex and the  
diaeresis.  I wonder if we can reduce these to two?  Would it be  
practical?  From maps and signposts, the grave (sometimes alternating  
with an acute) and the circumflex are present, and have reasonable  
grounds to be accepted as marks used in Cornish tradition, but the  
diaeresis seems to be absent.  If there is a way to replace it with  
one of the others, I'd like to see that considered.

Craig


On 24 Gen 2009, at 01:16, Michael Everson wrote:

> On 23 Jan 2009, at 23:18, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>> Although I run the risk of ruffling feathers, I do wonder if we are  
>> not drifting off track with some of the items being discussed  
>> here.  Surely, the idea was to concentrate upon addressing the  
>> faults recognised within SWF.  I don't understand where the yn/in  
>> question comes into this.  Are we, in fact, in danger of going a  
>> little too far?
>
> One of the faults is that it has no principled distribution if <i>  
> and <y> except in stressed monosyllables and some finals. The other  
> is that its accommodation of RLC cosmetic preferences isn't so great.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

--
Craig Weatherhill




From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan 24 09:39:37 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:39:37 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <F56DF338-AAF7-47CA-B670-A4CA8FBEE0C5@agantavas.org>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
	<B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
	<C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
	<F56DF338-AAF7-47CA-B670-A4CA8FBEE0C5@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <851A7539-BE8C-416A-9B99-80D8CC8CA609@gmail.com>

The spelling <leun> 'full' is attested 22 times (PA, BM, BK).

Nicholas


On 24 Jan 2009, at 09:11, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> However, it must not be thought that this graph is KK.

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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan 24 17:25:31 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:25:31 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <F56DF338-AAF7-47CA-B670-A4CA8FBEE0C5@agantavas.org>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
	<B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
	<C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
	<F56DF338-AAF7-47CA-B670-A4CA8FBEE0C5@agantavas.org>
Message-ID: <09D84464-92D2-4A07-9F34-CE589EFF2563@gmail.com>

The diaeresis is now apparently used in KK.


On 24 Jan 2009, at 09:11, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

> and the diaeresis.




From christian.semmens at gmail.com  Sat Jan 24 18:52:37 2009
From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 18:52:37 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
	<B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
	<C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
Message-ID: <bad50df40901241052n32d8d31geee2c8cd1aa56476@mail.gmail.com>

Although I understand there are some aesthetic sensibilities in RLC regading
the use of the letter 'i' but, so far I haven't seen much engagement from
the RLC community here with the exception of Mina and Neil. Is this so
important to them?

I must say, for my part, I tend to side with Eddie and Craig in this matter
and would prefer that, if we must use 'in' then, as Andrew suggests, 'yn' is
optional. I don't think there would be much likelyhood of there being
confusion between the adverbial particle and the preposition if both were
rendered 'yn'.

Christian

2009/1/24 Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>

> On 23 Jan 2009, at 23:18, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>  Although I run the risk of ruffling feathers, I do wonder if we are not
>> drifting off track with some of the items being discussed here.  Surely, the
>> idea was to concentrate upon addressing the faults recognised within SWF.  I
>> don't understand where the yn/in question comes into this.  Are we, in fact,
>> in danger of going a little too far?
>>
>
> One of the faults is that it has no principled distribution if <i> and <y>
> except in stressed monosyllables and some finals. The other is that its
> accommodation of RLC cosmetic preferences isn't so great.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>
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From christian.semmens at gmail.com  Sat Jan 24 18:53:12 2009
From: christian.semmens at gmail.com (Christian Semmens)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 18:53:12 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <bad50df40901241052n32d8d31geee2c8cd1aa56476@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
	<B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
	<C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
	<bad50df40901241052n32d8d31geee2c8cd1aa56476@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bad50df40901241053q13c79af4y77fe0fdfe7420288@mail.gmail.com>

Oops, and Dan of course! apologies Dan!
Christian

2009/1/24 Christian Semmens <christian.semmens at gmail.com>

> Although I understand there are some aesthetic sensibilities in RLC
> regading the use of the letter 'i' but, so far I haven't seen much
> engagement from the RLC community here with the exception of Mina and Neil.
> Is this so important to them?
>
> I must say, for my part, I tend to side with Eddie and Craig in this matter
> and would prefer that, if we must use 'in' then, as Andrew suggests, 'yn' is
> optional. I don't think there would be much likelyhood of there being
> confusion between the adverbial particle and the preposition if both were
> rendered 'yn'.
>
> Christian
>
> 2009/1/24 Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>
>
> On 23 Jan 2009, at 23:18, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>>
>>  Although I run the risk of ruffling feathers, I do wonder if we are not
>>> drifting off track with some of the items being discussed here.  Surely, the
>>> idea was to concentrate upon addressing the faults recognised within SWF.  I
>>> don't understand where the yn/in question comes into this.  Are we, in fact,
>>> in danger of going a little too far?
>>>
>>
>> One of the faults is that it has no principled distribution if <i> and <y>
>> except in stressed monosyllables and some finals. The other is that its
>> accommodation of RLC cosmetic preferences isn't so great.
>>
>> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Spellyans mailing list
>> Spellyans at kernowek.net
>> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net
>>
>
>
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From njawilliams at gmail.com  Sat Jan 24 19:59:17 2009
From: njawilliams at gmail.com (nicholas williams)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:59:17 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <bad50df40901241052n32d8d31geee2c8cd1aa56476@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
	<B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
	<C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
	<bad50df40901241052n32d8d31geee2c8cd1aa56476@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FFA89095-F963-4514-AB55-D698EAA8B2FB@gmail.com>

For what it is worth the collocation <yn> is attested 1874 times.
<in> is attested 2596 times. Some of the attestations of <in>
are Latin or English. All the same, it must be admitted
that <in> is very common. Since we do have both <yn>
and <in>, it seems sensible to use them both.

The first instance of <in> is in the Charter Fragment:

in vrna yz sens ze ves meystres
hedyr vywy hag harluzes
'then he will consider thee to be mistress
as long as you live and lady' CF 35-36.

in vrna is KS i'n eur-na. Both have <i> rather than <y>.

Nicholas

On 24 Jan 2009, at 18:52, Christian Semmens wrote:

> s this so important to them?

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From everson at evertype.com  Sat Jan 24 21:25:04 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:25:04 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <bad50df40901241052n32d8d31geee2c8cd1aa56476@mail.gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
	<B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
	<C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
	<bad50df40901241052n32d8d31geee2c8cd1aa56476@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F27F36BE-B4E4-415C-8F4C-9ED377895B44@evertype.com>

On 24 Jan 2009, at 18:52, Christian Semmens wrote:

> Although I understand there are some aesthetic sensibilities in RLC  
> regading the use of the letter 'i' but, so far I haven't seen much  
> engagement from the RLC community here with the exception of Mina  
> and Neil. Is this so important to them?

Really, it is. It's a reaction against Nance's y-only, I guess. I've  
had a number of conversations with RLC users, and indeed some of them  
think the SWF is "too medieval" already. I think some of that has to  
do with its use of the KK distribution of i and y.

We have had to make decisions about this distribution, because KK's  
assumptions and etymologies are not reliable. George may have got it  
right a lot of the time, but he also gets it wrong often, so every bit  
of it has to have a caveat.

The quality of initial /i/ in polysyllables is nearly always [?], so  
the gwin/gwydn distinction need not apply there. KS uses i- and -y  
everywhere except in the various particles (yn, y, yth, yma) where the  
sound is arguably schwa or i-coloured schwa.

I'm confident that by the time you've reached the end of Alys in Pow  
an Anethow you will be quite used to the in/yn distinction, which  
while initially unfamiliar to those who have learnt UC, UCR, or KK,  
has a good pedagogical rationale as well as a political one.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com




From weatherhill at freenet.co.uk  Sat Jan 24 21:40:28 2009
From: weatherhill at freenet.co.uk (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 21:40:28 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <09D84464-92D2-4A07-9F34-CE589EFF2563@gmail.com>
References: <C14E6D1E-E379-4696-A22F-3135320A0AE9@gmail.com>
	<COL115-DS17FFF41B24535F2FC20DC0CCCE0@phx.gbl>
	<8F44F9B2-852C-4A44-8BFD-8A016BAFC0F7@gmail.com>
	<7C24313D-5A35-4860-9201-4330F36FA879@yahoo.co.uk>
	<2828F8BF-5F75-46A7-95C3-444EBCAE15F1@gmail.com>
	<F0A136DF-6AA0-4323-8955-E161D7C2C7BA@yahoo.co.uk>
	<B8145367-52E8-4B29-9AFA-65DC14B02634@agantavas.org>
	<C4BBB87D-755C-4B82-9959-32652FBDD5C8@evertype.com>
	<F56DF338-AAF7-47CA-B670-A4CA8FBEE0C5@agantavas.org>
	<09D84464-92D2-4A07-9F34-CE589EFF2563@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0781E95B-966D-474C-BB5E-6A0667D77C21@freenet.co.uk>

Seems like a damn good reason not to use it!!

Craig



On 24 Gen 2009, at 17:25, nicholas williams wrote:

> The diaeresis is now apparently used in KK.
>
>
> On 24 Jan 2009, at 09:11, Craig Weatherhill wrote:
>
>> and the diaeresis.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Spellyans mailing list
> Spellyans at kernowek.net
> http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net




From daniel at ryan-prohaska.com  Sun Jan 25 12:18:52 2009
From: daniel at ryan-prohaska.com (Daniel Prohaska)
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:18:52 +0100
Subject: [Spellyans] 'up, upwards'
In-Reply-To: <bad50df40901241053q13c79af4y77fe0fdfe7420288@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090125121854.E32ED13BC09A@ipsrv02.ip.co.at>

Nag ew dhe vos acomptys, sos!

Dan

 

  _____  

From: Christian Semmens
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 7:53 PM



 

Oops, and Dan of course! apologies Dan!
Christian

2009/1/24 Christian Semmens <christian.semmens at gmail.com>

Although I understand there are some aesthetic sensibilities in RLC regading
the use of the letter 'i' but, so far I haven't seen much engagement from
the RLC community here with the exception of Mina and Neil. Is this so
important to them?

I must say, for my part, I tend to side with Eddie and Craig in this matter
and would prefer that, if we must use 'in' then, as Andrew suggests, 'yn' is
optional. I don't think there would be much likelyhood of there being
confusion between the adverbial particle and the preposition if both were
rendered 'yn'.

Christian

2009/1/24 Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>

 

On 23 Jan 2009, at 23:18, Craig Weatherhill wrote:

Although I run the risk of ruffling feathers, I do wonder if we are not
drifting off track with some of the items being discussed here.  Surely, the
idea was to concentrate upon addressing the faults recognised within SWF.  I
don't understand where the yn/in question comes into this.  Are we, in fact,
in danger of going a little too far?

 

One of the faults is that it has no principled distribution if <i> and <y>
except in stressed monosyllables and some finals. The other is that its
accommodation of RLC cosmetic preferences isn't so great.



Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com


_______________________________________________

Spellyans mailing list
Spellyans at kernowek.net
http://kernowek.net/mailman/listinfo/spellyans_kernowek.net

 

 

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From craig at agantavas.org  Wed Jan 28 10:57:06 2009
From: craig at agantavas.org (Craig Weatherhill)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:57:06 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] SWF
Message-ID: <DF4321DC-4F0F-454C-B7A2-F9217B31F978@agantavas.org>

I'm becoming increasingly concerned by the creeping misconception  
being encouraged by the term "Main Form".  Some are seeing this as  
"the official SWF", reducing the status and importance of the  
Traditional Form to a mere sideline role.  This is causing a problem  
in explaining to people that SWF/T has total equality, apart from use  
by official bodies and the early stages of formal education.

I must admit that. from the start, I was never happy with the term  
"Main Form", so am suggesting another title.  I now call the two SWF K- 
form, and SWF Traditional Form (SWF/K and SWF/T) and have started to  
use those on Cornwall 24.  If others agree, use of these terms could  
encourage a change and restore the balance.
--
Craig




From everson at evertype.com  Wed Jan 28 22:38:08 2009
From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson)
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 22:38:08 +0000
Subject: [Spellyans] A Concise Dictionary of Cornish Place-Names
Message-ID: <107C96ED-8B39-4697-8EDD-E77A47BBF910@evertype.com>

=====
PRESS RELEASE BEGINS
=====
Evertype is pleased to announce the publication of A Concise  
Dictionary of Cornish Place-Names by Craig Weatherhill.

Many people first take an interest in the Cornish language because  
they are curious to learn more about the distinctive and fascinating  
place names of Cornwall.

The key to understanding the meaning of these place-names is language.  
Most derive from the Cornish language primarily, but many of them have  
their roots in Old English, Middle English, French, and other  
languages which have left their mark on Cornwall. Through the tireless  
and exacting work of place-name specialists, the secrets of Cornish  
place-names are being unlocked for everyone. This dictionary offers in  
a concise format more than 3,300 place-names. It is the fruit of Craig  
Weatherhill?s many years of research, not only of the meaning of the  
names themselves, but of considering the question of how best to  
represent those names in Revived Cornish. The recommendations in this  
dictio nary preserve the authentic and attested linguistic forms while  
at the same time honouring the traditional orthographic forms which  
have been visible on the Cornish landscape for at least four centuries.

The orthography used in this dictionary is compatible with the  
Standard Written Form (SWF), adopted by the Cornish Language  
Partnership for educational and official use. It is also compatible  
with Kernowek Standard (KS), a practical orthography which informed  
the development of the SWF. In turn, KS has been modified in light of  
the published SWF specifi ca tion, while adopting a few emendations to  
make the ortho graphy more consistent and more like the spelling of  
traditional Cornish.

Copies may be obtained from Amazon.com, from Amazon.co.uk, from Spyrys  
a Gernow (e-mail shoppa @ spyrys.org). Copies will also be available  
at the Seminar being held by Maga at Lostwithiel on 31st January 2009.  
Published by Evertype, ISBN 978-1-904808-22-0. RRP ?8.95.
=====
PRESS RELEASE ENDS
=====
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com


